g.willikers
New member
Oddly enough, zinc is supposed to be helpful with prostate problems.
Non lead ammo and the future of ammunition development: A inside look/review. Part 1
- Thread starter Mystro
- Start date
Nutritionally zinc is listed as a "trace element " .How dumb ! Very important for the immune system , healing of wounds, etc. BTW zinc deficiant people can have white spots on the fingernails as as symptom .
Copper in nutrition is essential in small amounts but toxic in large amounts.Acid water in copper pipes will dissolve the copper - mental problems are some of the syptoms !
Copper in nutrition is essential in small amounts but toxic in large amounts.Acid water in copper pipes will dissolve the copper - mental problems are some of the syptoms !
Jim Watson
New member
Most lead free primers are built around Dinol, Diazodinitrophenol. The Winchester variety also contains potassium nitrate and nitrocellulose.
There was a European formula but it contained barium which was found to be about as bad as lead so it did not stay on the market long.
I don't mind having the choice. I'm strongly against having my options reduced by well-meaning people who want to stop the use of lead ammo.
So far I've not seen any that are better in terms of cost. Not saying it can't be done, just that it doesn't seem to be better in that way yet.
Using non-lead ammo does exactly nothing in terms of benefitting or harming the planet.
The amount of lead on the planet doesn't change since we aren't actually manufacturing lead. All we do is move some of it around--the net effect on the planet is zero.
I found two distributors that have some of these in stock. $9.25 a box of 50. At 18.5 cents a round of 9mm, the ammo you do find at that price point isn't the best quality to begin with and it's extremely dirty.
When I test new ammo, I never really know it's price point. Now that I know where it's starting to come in at, it's advantages blow traditional lead FMJ away for range ammo.
I said that statement with a grin.
Most of us just want quality cheap range fodder. Fornunatly I live in a free state where I can shoot anything I want. That said, performance and cost wise, I will use Zclean for my CCW class I teach. The guns stay remarkably cleaner than using any other ammo at that price point.
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themalicious0ne
New member
I know you have good intentions and I am very curious of the ammo since you claim they are both clean and accurate. I wonder what the unintended consequences could be.
How do the bullets perform terminally? I know you said this is being marketed for military and police. If zinc is a harder metal, can they use hollow cavities that will reliably expand? What about in 5.56? Will they tumble or act as the m855 and simply punch a small hole through? These are very concerning issues as far as defense goes. Using zinc is fine and all for range rounds given that they are not used in steel bullet traps. But with more penetration, higher ricochet probability unknown terminal performance, I hope that no politician uses misguided information about the well being of the environment and tries to push zinc and get rid of lead.
That is unlikely to happen, but saying this is the "future" of bullet technology is a little big spectrum without all necessary information. Im sure the same was said of copper, at least that has good terminal performance. Without available reloading data, and terminal performance proof, you are only really marketing to range bullets.
How do the bullets perform terminally? I know you said this is being marketed for military and police. If zinc is a harder metal, can they use hollow cavities that will reliably expand? What about in 5.56? Will they tumble or act as the m855 and simply punch a small hole through? These are very concerning issues as far as defense goes. Using zinc is fine and all for range rounds given that they are not used in steel bullet traps. But with more penetration, higher ricochet probability unknown terminal performance, I hope that no politician uses misguided information about the well being of the environment and tries to push zinc and get rid of lead.
That is unlikely to happen, but saying this is the "future" of bullet technology is a little big spectrum without all necessary information. Im sure the same was said of copper, at least that has good terminal performance. Without available reloading data, and terminal performance proof, you are only really marketing to range bullets.
There is no plans to develop a Zinc hp. Terminally the Zinc are equivilan to the 124gr nato. Except they penetrate better. So much better that there were tactile advantages brought up for military applications. I can't go into that too much. For handguns, it's a perfect FMJ replacement. For the consumer market it will be ideal for practice ammo. That is the way LE is using the Zinc bullet. There is continuing testing on the 5.56 terminal performance. I don't even know if that data will be allowed to be revealed. There was a lot taken out of this review that couldn't be publicly discussed. You know all it will take is for a private citizen to do a backyard ballistic gel test and post them on YouTube. It's not that scientific but it will give a general performance threshold.
I am a R&D guy that works with the end product. The Zinc bullet could always be misused and there is not much I can do about that. There could always be a political or media demonizing but that's the world we live in. I don't own the company or the pattens so a lot of those variables and decisions are way beyond my hands.
Military has been on a path for a lead free alternative bullet for years. LE has known about the airborne lead contamination and has been a problem at LE indoor ranges. Even the best HEPA filters won't fix the lead problem. It's so bad that anyone that works in them needs to get a blood screening for lead 4 times a year.
I am a R&D guy that works with the end product. The Zinc bullet could always be misused and there is not much I can do about that. There could always be a political or media demonizing but that's the world we live in. I don't own the company or the pattens so a lot of those variables and decisions are way beyond my hands.
Military has been on a path for a lead free alternative bullet for years. LE has known about the airborne lead contamination and has been a problem at LE indoor ranges. Even the best HEPA filters won't fix the lead problem. It's so bad that anyone that works in them needs to get a blood screening for lead 4 times a year.
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Jim Watson
New member
Ooh ooh, a secret bullet. Hard to keep physics secret, though.
The NRA had some material on zinc bullets from early, early work. For example, they reported .30-06 penetration in soft materials like wood comparable to GI AP. Will a zinc .223 do as well or do we run into scaling effects?
Fixed that for you, as the Internet Wonks are wont to say.
As best I could tell, the Aquila IQ bullet was made out of zinc or Zamak zinc alloy. It was a lightweight hollowpoint with three deep scores down the ogive of the bullet. Upon impact with a soft target (water for me) it typically broke into three or four pieces instead of mushrooming like lead or copper. Penetration was short by FBI standards but it was reported effective in combat from Latin American sources.
Is this a German development or are you of German extraction?
The reason I ask is that "Zink" is the German spelling of what we American Commoners call "zinc."
Thanks for the heads up: For some reason my spell checker keeps changing Zinc to Zink???
This might help explain about accuracy we are dealing with:
BC is just how aero dynamic (pointy the bullet is)
BC has zero effect on a pistol round (wad cutters are very accurate at 25 yards) and has zero effect on rifle bullets inside of 100 yards.
Load a .223 bullet backwards and shoot a group of 10 @ 100 yards and you will get the same group size as loaded normally.
What Makes Pistol Bullet Accurate
1. Concentricity – The bullet must be concentric
2. Density – The bullet should be equally weighted throughout, the nose profile is required for reliable loading into the chamber.
3. Bearing Surface – The amount of the projectile that contacts the rifling ( I call power band) to stabilize the bullet in flight, typically the larger the surface the better.
4. Gyro Stability – Formula used to determine if a bullet is properly stabilized based on twist rate of barrel / grain weight of bullet / FPS. Anything over 1.5 is sufficient to stabilize.
Pistol barrels have sufficient twist rates to stabilize a non-lead bullet, while its true the longer the bullet the higher the twist rate is required, a copper / zinc / frangible bullet dimensionally is closer to its higher grain weight lead counterpart. See example below:
1. 9mm 147 grain Speer Gold Dot
Bullet OAL .640
FPS @ Muzzle 990 (Glock 17)
Gyro Stability when fired from a Standard Glock 17 with a 4.48” barrel and twist rate of 9.84– 11.5
2. 9mm 100 grain Zclean
Bullet OAL .615
FPS @ Muzzle 1,225 (Glock 17)
Gyro Stability when fired from a Standard Glock 17 with a 4.48” barrel and twist rate of 9.84 – 10.7
Once the Gyro stability has been established of 1.5 or better; bullet accuracy is based on concentricity, bearing surface, density, and of course the shooter.
This might help explain about accuracy we are dealing with:
BC is just how aero dynamic (pointy the bullet is)
BC has zero effect on a pistol round (wad cutters are very accurate at 25 yards) and has zero effect on rifle bullets inside of 100 yards.
Load a .223 bullet backwards and shoot a group of 10 @ 100 yards and you will get the same group size as loaded normally.
What Makes Pistol Bullet Accurate
1. Concentricity – The bullet must be concentric
2. Density – The bullet should be equally weighted throughout, the nose profile is required for reliable loading into the chamber.
3. Bearing Surface – The amount of the projectile that contacts the rifling ( I call power band) to stabilize the bullet in flight, typically the larger the surface the better.
4. Gyro Stability – Formula used to determine if a bullet is properly stabilized based on twist rate of barrel / grain weight of bullet / FPS. Anything over 1.5 is sufficient to stabilize.
Pistol barrels have sufficient twist rates to stabilize a non-lead bullet, while its true the longer the bullet the higher the twist rate is required, a copper / zinc / frangible bullet dimensionally is closer to its higher grain weight lead counterpart. See example below:
1. 9mm 147 grain Speer Gold Dot
Bullet OAL .640
FPS @ Muzzle 990 (Glock 17)
Gyro Stability when fired from a Standard Glock 17 with a 4.48” barrel and twist rate of 9.84– 11.5
2. 9mm 100 grain Zclean
Bullet OAL .615
FPS @ Muzzle 1,225 (Glock 17)
Gyro Stability when fired from a Standard Glock 17 with a 4.48” barrel and twist rate of 9.84 – 10.7
Once the Gyro stability has been established of 1.5 or better; bullet accuracy is based on concentricity, bearing surface, density, and of course the shooter.
Dreadnought
New member
I can see why an indoor range would want to implement bullets without exposed lead. However, as pointed out, this will greatly impact loading tables and also ballistics charts. With the past several tens of decades where lead ballistics charts have been set in stone, plenty of alternative materials have been tested. The lack of HP availability in alternative bullet material, I can't see wide acceptance nor adoption as more than a specialty round for localities or ranges banning lead projectiles. For the military, maybe, but they are governed by different rules of engagement than civilians and even law enforcement.
If you practice exclusively with these light bullets, you won't be accustomed to the recoil impulse of the widely researched and tested, commonly available JHP defensive loadings. In my book, heavier is always better as I'm not only looking for deep penetration, but limited deviation of bullet travel as can happen to greater extremes with lighter projectiles.
I'm guessing the 5.56 bullets are somewhere around 40 gr, what is their terminal performance at 5-600 yd? What twist rates are the barrels? Given the current nature of military engagements, perhaps the long-range applications are being given little importance at this time?
I know OP probably can't answer then questions without breaching NDAs, but it bears mentioning. As stated earlier, we're just moving lead around, it's being neither created nor destroyed.
Have a nice day!
If you practice exclusively with these light bullets, you won't be accustomed to the recoil impulse of the widely researched and tested, commonly available JHP defensive loadings. In my book, heavier is always better as I'm not only looking for deep penetration, but limited deviation of bullet travel as can happen to greater extremes with lighter projectiles.
I'm guessing the 5.56 bullets are somewhere around 40 gr, what is their terminal performance at 5-600 yd? What twist rates are the barrels? Given the current nature of military engagements, perhaps the long-range applications are being given little importance at this time?
I know OP probably can't answer then questions without breaching NDAs, but it bears mentioning. As stated earlier, we're just moving lead around, it's being neither created nor destroyed.
Have a nice day!