Nomenclature

Old habits die hard. When I went through Army Basic Training, the drill sergeants told us that "guns" were on battleships, those things we were carrying around were "rifles."
 
.. Army Basic Training, the drill sergeants told us that "guns" were on battleships, those things we were carrying around were "rifles."
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And in the NAVY, those same battleship weapons are called "rifles" !!!!

16" 50 caliber rifles. The Navy also uses the alternate meaning of "caliber", which expressed the length of the gun barrel in terms of bore diameter. A 50 caliber naval rifle has a barrel 50 x bore diameter in length.
So a 16" 50 caliber rifle has a barrel 50x16" long (which by my math works out to be 65 feet).

The Military uses a very specialized terminology, intended to, but not always effective at, reducing confusion about what item is being discussed.

LAWS use a different set of terms, with the definitions being defined in the law.

Regular conversation uses terms in what is usually the sloppiest manner possible, and relies heavily on context to get the intended meaning across.

The Army has its own ideas about what is, and isn't a "gun". The M16 (or any infantry small arm) isn't a "gun". To the Army, a "gun" is a cannon, and one that is intended primarily for direct (line of sight) fire. A Howitzer is a cannon intended (primarily) for indirect fire. In WWII we had both a 155mm M1 Gun, and a 155mm M1 Howitzer, and they were NOT the same thing.

Bottom line is, in the military, no matter what it really is, is what the guy who outranks you says it is, until someone who outranks him, says differently. ;)
 
44 AMP said:
Bottom line is, in the military, no matter what it really is, is what the guy who outranks you says it is, until someone who outranks him, says differently.
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Words to live by -- especially if you're in the military.
 
g.willikers said:

There's no need for all the consternation, they are all called "Guns."
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You ever serve in the Army? Strictly a no-no and brings forth the ire of the sergeant to refer to an individual weapon as a "gun."

In military palaver a gun is a crew served weapon. And even further, in artillery parlance, they differentiate between "gun" and "howitzer", a gun being direct fire, high velocity, high breech pressure type of weapon.


Bob Wright
 
As a matter of fact, I was once called to task for saying the M1 and M2 carbines were not really carbines but technically light rifles.

My definition being that the carbine is chambered for the standard rifle/machine gun round, whereas the light rifle is chambered for a pistol type cartridge. The .30 M1 carbine falls into pistol cartridge parameters.


Bob Wright
 
Whether or not a rifle is a carbine depends on what standards you are applying. Generally speaking, the usual standard is barrel length, and usually compared to the "standard" rifle barrel length.

A Mauser K98k is a carbine, but it has a 25" barrel. The standard infantry rifle had a 29" barrel.

In the US generally speaking, sporting rifle barrels under 22" are often called carbines.

The Military, however, uses their own definitions and standards, and if they happen to be the same as civilian ones, that is just serendipity.

A 20" barrel Winchester 94 is a carbine. A 20" barrel M16 is a rifle (to the military).

And, Bob, there's no reason I can think of why a "light rifle" cannot ALSO be a carbine...;)
 
Sam Colt called his revolving contraption a "pistol", that's good enough for me.

Also note that, by the ATF's definition, double action revolvers are "semi-automatic."
 
In old Winchester terminology, barrel shape defined rifle or carbine.

A 20" round barrel, with bands, was a carbine. A 20" octagon barrel with fore end tip was a "short rifle." A half octagon barrel, with fore end tip, was a rifle. Whether the fore arm was banded or tipped played a role in terminology.

Again, under the strictest terminology, a carbine was chambered for a rifle cartridge, the standard infantry rifle cartridge. The light rifle took a straight walled pistol cartridge.

Again, these terms are arbitrary at best, depending on the source of definition.

Further, the US BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) M1918A2 was an automatic rifle or machine rifle, while the Brits called their BREN gun a light machine gun, though both are magazine fed. And the Benet Mercie M1909 was called a machine rifle, though self feeding from stripper clips.

Bob Wright
 
In the 19th century Colt advertised "Revolving Pistols" for sale, a term obviously adopted to differentiate them from the single shot pistols that had dominated for hundreds of years.

It wasn't until probably the 1920s that pistol came more and more to mean semi-automatic handgun.

All handguns are pistols.

All semi-automatics are pistols.

All revolvers are pistols.

But not all pistols are revolvers, etc.
 
A Mauser K98k is a carbine, but it has a 25" barrel.
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That is what they standardized on in 1935 to match US and British rifles.
Prior to that, along with the 29" rifle, they had a real Carbine 98 with 17" barrel. BANG!
 
Bob Wright said:
...I was once called to task for saying the M1 and M2 carbines were not really carbines but technically light rifles.

My definition being that the carbine is chambered for the standard rifle/machine gun round, whereas the light rifle is chambered for a pistol type cartridge.
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However, considering that the M2 is a small pistol-caliber rifled-barrel select-fire shoulder weapon, wouldn't that make it a submachine gun? :rolleyes:

But then again... during Vietnam, the Colt CAR-15 / XM177 / Commando / GAU-5 was officially referred to as a submachine gun by U.S. Army aviation, despite the fact that it fires a rifle cartridge and thus could be considered a carbine! :confused:

Who's on first? ;) It's like trying to nail Jell-o to a tree...

Reminds me of trying to define certain automotive terms:
  • Sports car: USED to mean a small and light two-seat convertible with tight suspension, but now means virtually anything that has two doors and goes fast, despite the fact that many cars that fall under the classical definition are certainly NOT fast, at least not in a straight line (e.g. MG Midget, Fiat 850 Sport Spyder).
  • Sports sedan: USED to refer to small sporty 2+2's but has now been bludgeoned into near-meaninglessness by automaker marketing departments. I think it now effectively means "sedan that looks cool."
  • Sport Utility Vehicle: USED to refer to truck-based 4x4's with full enclosed passenger compartments but has now effectively morphed into "tall station wagon".
44AMP said:
...in the NAVY, those same battleship weapons are called "rifles" !!!!
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...and somehow I'm reminded of the debate about where to draw the line between battleship and battlecruiser, or where to draw the line between destroyer and frigate and corvette...
 
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..what about "pocket-battleships"? ;)

and on the Army side, the distinction(s) between light, medium, and heavy tanks (which changed during WWII)??

Bottom line, it is what the owner says it is, unless you outrank them! :D
 
and somehow I'm reminded of the debate about where to draw the line between battleship and battlecruiser, or where to draw the line between destroyer and frigate and corvette...
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I'm enjoying the discussion and think Mike Irwin got it right in post #36.

That said, if you nailed me down and forced me into taking a side I'd use the above quote and go with 'frigate'.
 
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