no right to resist unlawful police entry into their homes

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Read this thread and then go back and read the thread about the police in Great Britain.

You worry about a police state, yet in today's Washington Post, the number of police officers in the District of Columbia fell from 4,200 to 3,800 in the last three years and is expected to go to 3,500 in the next 18 months under the mayor's budget plan. However, it was an opinion article written by the chair of the DC Fraternal Order of Police, who naturally was against reducing the number of policemen on the grounds that there is a direct relationship in the number of policemen and the amount of crime.
 
No, we DON'T both know that this type of situation is unlikely. The CATO Institute has a huge database of police warrants served illegally, and the news at least every week reports somewhere in the U.S. a home invasion by thugs claiming to be police. Maybe not SWAT, but "police."

"Convincingly" has nothing to do with it when they are outside pounding on the door and I'm inside in my pajamas trying to get my wife and kid out of what might be the line of fire within seconds.

I don't know about you, but it takes more to convince me that someone is who they say they are than just yelling "POLICE". Is the person pounding on your door wearing a police uniform? Is there a squad car parked out front? Does this person (remember we're talking about and individual and not a SWAT team) have papers with him to serve? An even partially developed sense of observation will allow you to see the above mentioned things and will go a long way towards determining if the person pounding on your door is who they say they are. I don't know about you, but I never open my door to someone without looking to see who they are first.

As for lone cops kicking in doors -- just last week there was an incident reported on this forum of an OFF DUTY cop who followed a man into the man's own home and shot him in front of the guy's fiancee and her child -- then walked back across the street without even calling for medical assistance.

Do you happen to have a citation for this incident? I'd rather like to see a direct account myself.

If you don't think this kind of stuff happens all too often, and certainly often enough to make it unwise to assume that anyone outside hollering "Police!" is really police, you either live in a very small town or you haven't been paying attention to what's going on in the real world.

Well, I don't live in a metropolis by any means, but it certainly isn't Mayberry either. You're really making a lot of assumptions here as to what exactly I'd do if someone was pounding on my door yelling "POLICE!" You're right that simply taking the word of whomever may be pounding on your door isn't wise, but neither is assuming that they are not who they say they are simply because you believe yourself to be a fine upstanding citizen.

Now, all of this said, I'm liking this ruling less and less the more I think about it. I'm inclined to agree with Al in that it was much broader than it needed to be. Looking over the details of the case, I'm really not entirely sure that the entry of the police in this circumstance was even illegal. I think I could probably swallow the IN court simply saying that the man's behavior in the situation constituted probable cause to enter more than I can their current ruling.
 
That common-law right was affirmed by the US Supreme Court in the John Bad Elk case. The Indiana court does not have the authority to overturn or ignore a USSC ruling.
That case is different for a couple of reasons. The most important, for this discussion, is that it involved a trial in federal court, not state court. The U.S. Supreme Court applied federal common law. The states apply their own common law and can change it. The U.S. Supreme Court can change federal common law. The federal and state legislatures can each change common law by statute. Heck, the sate of Louisiana doesn't technically have a common law system because it derived its jurisprudence from France, not England.
 
WebleyMkV, do a google search for off duty Philadelphia police shooting; happened very recently.

I did find information on an incident which took place on April 26 that sounds as though it may be the same one Aguila Blanca is referring to. However, the reports I found really only tell one side of the incident (the girlfriend's) and thus don't really provide enough information to make an accurate judgement on how pertinent this particular incident is to the discussion at hand. Because Aguila Blanca hasn't yet responded to my previous post, I'll withold further comment until he does in case he has more information than I was able to find.
 
KyJim said:
We need to remember that the Indiana court did not strike down a constitutional right. It apparently overturned long-standing common law. The common law is judge-made law and changes from time to time.
Sure they did. Remember that 4th Amendment?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
 
Webleymkv said:
I don't know about you, but it takes more to convince me that someone is who they say they are than just yelling "POLICE". Is the person pounding on your door wearing a police uniform? Is there a squad car parked out front? Does this person (remember we're talking about and individual and not a SWAT team) have papers with him to serve? An even partially developed sense of observation will allow you to see the above mentioned things and will go a long way towards determining if the person pounding on your door is who they say they are. I don't know about you, but I never open my door to someone without looking to see who they are first.
What you seem to be overlooking is that police have persuaded the courts to issue "no knock" warrants, that give them authorization to conduct dynamic entries (i.e. smashing down the door) with no notice. They have also persuaded the courts to adopt a time delay of as little as 30 seconds as being a reasonable time to wait after knocking, before they bust in the door. I am a heavy sleeper and I sleep on the second floor. I'm also a senior citizen. I can't get out of bed and to the front door in 30 seconds even after I wake up and realize that there's someone knocking.

Then add to that that there is a growing trend of home invaders wearing police uniforms and flashing phony badges.

What it comes down to is that a uniform doesn't prove anything today. And while I agree with you regarding the intent of a warrant -- the cops are supposed to show you the warrant, allow you to read and understand it, and then allow them to enter -- in what seems to be a majority of instances today the warrant is "served" only after the occupants have been subdued and handcuffed.

It ain't s'posed to be that way.

Webleymkv said:
Well, I don't live in a metropolis by any means, but it certainly isn't Mayberry either. You're really making a lot of assumptions here as to what exactly I'd do if someone was pounding on my door yelling "POLICE!" You're right that simply taking the word of whomever may be pounding on your door isn't wise, but neither is assuming that they are not who they say they are simply because you believe yourself to be a fine upstanding citizen.
I'm not talking about someone "knocking" on the door. We are talking about unknown persons smashing through your door. You do as you wish, but I will assume that anyone smashing through my door intends to do me harm.

Here's your link -- it's on this site: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449445
 
I think that given the circumstances, the police did have the right to enter. The wife wanted them in and the husband didn't. That should have been the issue for the court. Not whether or not the defendant had a right to resist an unlawful entry.
 
Martin Luther King perceived the root of the problem in his 1963 "Letter From A Birmingham Jail", in which he admonished the white clergy for it's indifferent to black suffering:


I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice


We have as a society since found out, of course, that it's not a race thing, but rather a class thing which defines the indifference to the suffering of lower class persons caught up in the judicial system.

The majority public opinion remains hit 'em hard, and keep 'em down and out of my space, no matter what.
 
I think we need to all be on the same page as to what Common Law actually is. While you can find many different definitions and explanations, one of the best is this one:

Common law is the system of deciding cases that originated in England and which was latter adopted in the U.S.. Common law is based on precedent (legal principles developed in earlier case law) instead of statutory laws. It is the traditional law of an area or region created by judges when deciding individual disputes or cases. Common law changes over time.

The U.S. is a common law country. In all states except Louisiana, which is based on Napoleonic code, the common law of England was adopted as the general law of the state, or varied by statute. Today almost all common law has been enacted into statutes with modern variations by all the states. Broad areas of the law, such as property, contracts and torts are traditionally part of the common law. Because these areas of the law are mostly within the jurisdiction of the states, state courts are the main source of common law. The area of federal common law is primarily limited to federal issues that have not been addressed by a statute.

There is one other Item I would point out, as it is relevant to this discussion. The fourth amendment says:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I've highlighted a different section than the area that Aguila Blanca highlighted. We all seem to forget that such searches and seizures must be unreasonable in their nature.

This is where Common Law comes into play. Over the years the Courts, both State and Federal, have opined on what is reasonable, not actually what is unreasonable. For good or bad, this is what case law has determined.

In the instant case, the officers were answering a domestic disturbance call. At the time the husband sent(?) his wife inside, the police had authority to determine if the wife was really OK. This is called an exigent circumstance and Courts all over have ruled the police need no warrant to enter the premises in these situations. This is an act of Common Law, if it is not already statutorily defined.

The Indiana Supreme Court, in this case, did not rule in any sort of narrow manner, that one would expect. Instead, with a broad brush, they painted out the protections of incorporated 4th Amendment jurisprudence (I haven't looked to see if the Indiana Constitution has a 4A analog).

Reasonableness and warrants no longer matter when the State of Indiana seeks to enter your home. This is entirely an action of Common Law and is at extreme odds with federal statutory construction, supremacy and federal common law itself.

What this Court has said is no different than telling a woman in the process of being raped, to simply lay there and enjoy it. Any recourse comes later. But only if we find that the perpetrator actually raped you. Then and only then can you go to court to seek recompense.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webleymkv
I don't know about you, but it takes more to convince me that someone is who they say they are than just yelling "POLICE". Is the person pounding on your door wearing a police uniform? Is there a squad car parked out front? Does this person (remember we're talking about and individual and not a SWAT team) have papers with him to serve? An even partially developed sense of observation will allow you to see the above mentioned things and will go a long way towards determining if the person pounding on your door is who they say they are. I don't know about you, but I never open my door to someone without looking to see who they are first.

What you seem to be overlooking is that police have persuaded the courts to issue "no knock" warrants, that give them authorization to conduct dynamic entries (i.e. smashing down the door) with no notice. They have also persuaded the courts to adopt a time delay of as little as 30 seconds as being a reasonable time to wait after knocking, before they bust in the door. I am a heavy sleeper and I sleep on the second floor. I'm also a senior citizen. I can't get out of bed and to the front door in 30 seconds even after I wake up and realize that there's someone knocking.

I am familiar with "no knock" warrants, but I'm pretty sure that they're not typically served by a lone officer. The days of Dirty Harry kicking in doors with no backup besides Smith and Wesson are gone, if they ever really existed to begin with. Heck, in my area it's getting rare for a cop to even make a traffic stop without calling for some sort of backup.

Also, as I understand it, a no knock warrant is issued for a high-risk suspect that is likely to flee or pose an unneccessarily high safety risk if he has time to react. Because of this, I'm betting that there will most likely be a SWAT team, or at least a large number of officers as backup before doors get kicked in. Now, fake uniforms and badges are one thing but I rather doubt that there are very many street gangs sporting Level III body armor, MP5's, and armored vans. Like I said before, I don't think the common thug can pull off a convincing imitation of a SWAT team.

As to your link, that's the same one I found when I Googled it and there are just a few issues here. First, we only really get one side of the story in detail from the girlfriend. The city has only released a very brief description of the officer's account and it's simply too early to make any judgements based on the limited info we have. Secondly, even if we assume that the girlfriend's account of the incident is 100% accurate, the legal right to resist doesn't really make a whole lot of difference here. Regardless of his rights, the guy still got shot and may very well die, no court ruling will change that. According to the officer's account, the man was shot because he resisted by pointing his gun at the cop, so whether the guy had the legal right to resist or not, it still got him shot. Also, if the cop truly did go wacko and shoot this guy for no good reason, the guy would most likely have a pretty strong case for shooting back based on the fact, if the witness accounts are accurate, that he had no reason to believe that the guy assaulting him was in fact a police officer. Finally, even in an extreme case such as this the victim or his family still has legal recourse against both the officer and department if the incident went down as they say it did.
 
The Indiana Supreme Court, in this case, did not rule in any sort of narrow manner, that one would expect. Instead, with a broad brush, they painted out the protections of incorporated 4th Amendment jurisprudence (I haven't looked to see if the Indiana Constitution has a 4A analog).

Reasonableness and warrants no longer matter when the State of Indiana seeks to enter your home. This is entirely an action of Common Law and is at extreme odds with federal statutory construction, supremacy and federal common law itself.

What this Court has said is no different than telling a woman in the process of being raped, to simply lay there and enjoy it. Any recourse comes later. But only if we find that the perpetrator actually raped you. Then and only then can you go to court to seek recompense.

Sorry Al, but that's a logical leap that's just a bit too far for me to make. Resisting police entry into your home under questionable circumstances and defending yourself against death or grave bodily injury are quite different and I'm pretty confident that a jury or the Indiana Supreme Court could distinguish between them.

Also, I see nothing in this decision that changes the legality of unreasonable entry into my home. If the cops search my house without a warrant or probable cause, then any evidence obtained therin is still inadmissable and cannot be used against me. If I'm arrested without a warrant or probable cause, I can still sue for false arrest.

The issue is, honestly, a double edged sword. If the court had struck down the convictions, then it could conceivably be argued that I have the legal right to refuse to pull my car over when signalled if I don't believe I've comitted a traffic violation. I agree that the decision was too broad and I think that the best course of action would have been to uphold the convictions on the grounds that entry, in this particular circumstance, was not illegal because the criteria for "exigent circumstances" had been met. While I agree that the court went too far on this one, it would have been just as bad had they not gone far enough.
 
And if you tell the officer that, No, he can't come in without a warrant/probable cause, he can now arrest you, on the spot, for resisting/impeding.

You may get the search thrown out, but you will not get the resisting/impeding arrest dropped. Because the Indiana Supreme Court just made any such action, criminal.

And yes, I can quote the exact words of this opinion that specify this:

We hold that there is no right to reasonably resist unlawful entry by police officers.

No right to reasonably resist... Such as saying, "No."

As for the rape analogy, after reading the decision, it was my wife that suggested the analogy. I agreed with her. It is not as far-fetched as you would make it. [shrug] So we disagree.

Time will tell if this decision is allowed to stand.
 
And if you tell the officer that, No, he can't come in without a warrant/probable cause, he can now arrest you, on the spot, for resisting/impeding.

You may get the search thrown out, but you will not get the resisting/impeding arrest dropped. Because the Indiana Supreme Court just made any such action, criminal.

Indiana laws is specific enough that simply denying permission to enter does not constitute resisting:

IC 35-44-3-3 Version a
Resisting law enforcement; mandatory sentence
Note: This version of section amended by P.L.100-2010, SEC.6. See also following version of this section amended by P.L.102-2010, SEC.2.
Sec. 3. (a) A person who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) forcibly resists, obstructs, or interferes with a law enforcement officer or a person assisting the officer while the officer is lawfully engaged in the execution of the officer's duties;
(2) forcibly resists, obstructs, or interferes with the authorized service or execution of a civil or criminal process or order of a court; or
(3) flees from a law enforcement officer after the officer has, by visible or audible means, including operation of the law enforcement officer's siren or emergency lights, identified himself or herself and ordered the person to stop;
commits resisting law enforcement, a Class A misdemeanor

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar44/ch3.html

Notice that 1 and 2 specifically include the words "forcibly". Simply telling and officer "No, you may not enter my home without a warrant" does not meet the definition of resisting law enforcement under Indiana law.
 
Sure they did. Remember that 4th Amendment?
The Indiana court did not throw out the 4th Amendment. In fact, the issue is the remedy when police violate the 4th Amendment and enter a home unlawfully. Can you shoot them down like dogs or do you take it to a court?

In fact, violation of the 4th Amendment in and of itself carries no penalty. Suppression of evidence seized in violation of the 4th Amendment was a fairly recent development in the law. Civil liability for violation of civil rights is a creation of federal statute. So is potential criminal liability.
 
This ruling should suprise no one! Soon we will be required to house soldiers in our homes too; soldiers who serve the government not the people. IMO if the police are not elected sherrifs or working for an elected sherrif, then they are simply another government intrusion. It is not the fault of the police, but it is the fault of their bosses, the politicians; NOT THE PEOPLE.
 
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"We believe ... a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence," David said. "We also find that allowing resistance unnecessarily escalates the level of violence and therefore the risk of injuries to all parties involved without preventing the arrest."

What I see wrong with this is:

Modern police/govt agencies are the ones unnecessarily amping up the violence levels. Every govt agency with arrest powers now suddenly wants mp5's, black suited ninjas and assault helicopters, and the "Patriot Act" (or, "Let's turn America into NAZI Germany Act" has poured billions of federal dollars into turning every podunk police force into heavily armed FBI raid team wannabees. These guys sit around playing with their new toys, a situation that could have been handled differently comes up, and suddenly it looks like they're filming an episode of "The A-Team" in your neighborhood. Remember, everything looks like a nail if you have a shiny new hammer you wanna try out...

These raids themselves are unnecessarily dangerous for all involved. Surround the house, call for the suspect to give up. If things escalate, then breach the door.

The current culture of law enforcement worship has me worried. I respect the job the men and women of law enforcement do, but they are simply doing a job like anyone else. We as a people need to stop, take a long look around, and demand our rights back...
 
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telling a woman in the process of being raped, to simply lay there and enjoy it

Said by Lone Star oil and gas tycoon Clayton Williams while campaigning for Governor of Texas in the early 80's. LOL, she's got recourse in the courts, but it's intercourse right now. Anne Richards tromped his donkey in that election.

This ruling is whack. Far as I know, the John Bad Elk case is still good law.
 
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