No one on this forum want to kill leo's!
- Thread starter oberkommando
- Start date
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Ober-
I took no offense to your post or the thread. You've said nothing wrong. But it's Christmas and I don't want us fighting among each other. My request was that the thread not degenerate.
As for my comments, I was simply pointing out that there are criminals and negligents in LEO and non-LEO circles. I don't like to see us generalizing from those cases to the entire class. This tactic has allowed the liberals to demonize everyone from mainstream Christians, to firearms owners to those who oppose any liberal agenda. It has been picked up by the media and internalized by the public. In the end, no good can come of it, as the scavengers feast on what's left of our freedoms after everyone's been made "safe".
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 22, 1999).]
I took no offense to your post or the thread. You've said nothing wrong. But it's Christmas and I don't want us fighting among each other. My request was that the thread not degenerate.
As for my comments, I was simply pointing out that there are criminals and negligents in LEO and non-LEO circles. I don't like to see us generalizing from those cases to the entire class. This tactic has allowed the liberals to demonize everyone from mainstream Christians, to firearms owners to those who oppose any liberal agenda. It has been picked up by the media and internalized by the public. In the end, no good can come of it, as the scavengers feast on what's left of our freedoms after everyone's been made "safe".
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 22, 1999).]
Sorry Brasso, I just disagree. Cops are doing a job. A dangerous job that they knew was dangerous going in. I sure as hell don't see them as "the embodiment of the law" and perhaps if they see themselves that way it explains some of the excesses some of them perpetrate. Seeing yourself as the "embodiment" of anything is a sure way to lose perspective.
Rich
Thankyou
spent all day composing a rant bashing the no LEOs for bashing the cops here like they all were criminals(or "Jack Booted Thugs") and the LEOs for closeing ranks behind their badges over bad cops who they wouldn't trust to cover them in a hostile situation. Then deleted it thought it got to preachy. Both contribute to the US aginst them mentality.
The people here LEO and non LEO are not the #$%^%^^ gestapo so lets get civil. If it falls apart we are going to need each other in a bad way..
Thankyou
spent all day composing a rant bashing the no LEOs for bashing the cops here like they all were criminals(or "Jack Booted Thugs") and the LEOs for closeing ranks behind their badges over bad cops who they wouldn't trust to cover them in a hostile situation. Then deleted it thought it got to preachy. Both contribute to the US aginst them mentality.
The people here LEO and non LEO are not the #$%^%^^ gestapo so lets get civil. If it falls apart we are going to need each other in a bad way..
swampgator
New member
HKG3: On a national level anti gun politics have been advocated. I don't work for a "national" level agency. I can only speak for what the FOP and PBA have done for me and my family. On the same token the National Association of Police Chiefs have advocated anti gun measures. Again does that mean the local chief is anti gun? No it doesn't. I would imagine that there are very few national level organizations that we use everyday that does not at some level have an anti gun philosophy. The only exceptions being NRA, GOA etc.
Gator
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Root Hog or Die Poor
Gator
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Root Hog or Die Poor
RikWriter,
When there is trouble, people don't call their judge or DA to come handle the situation. They call a police officer, and they expect them to apply the law. If the police officer does not see himself/herself (just being PC) as the law, then what is the motivation to abide by it? It is the officers who see themselves only as armed enforcers drawing civil service pay checks that are the problem, not the ones who view themselves as the law, and try to honor it. I think you have it backwards.
When there is trouble, people don't call their judge or DA to come handle the situation. They call a police officer, and they expect them to apply the law. If the police officer does not see himself/herself (just being PC) as the law, then what is the motivation to abide by it? It is the officers who see themselves only as armed enforcers drawing civil service pay checks that are the problem, not the ones who view themselves as the law, and try to honor it. I think you have it backwards.
oberkommando
New member
This is my last post from my big mouth on this onerous threade, I promise.
Rich, Sorry for misunderstanding.
Brasso, not saying I want to change system but by law you are forced to call for police, as now days you are not allowed to handle the situ yourself, especially where guns are involved.As to leos getting a free pass thats fine until it starts applying to felonies, its a dangerous road thats easy to drift off of, much more so that stealing a few big macks.
Thanks everyone esp the leo's who take a beating here occasionally and hope you guys stick around. Some of the posts get out of order and generalize too much and others sound too harsh, no excuses for it except were all human on this forum. [except fourdiamonds]And one more time hope you all have a safe xmas and hope this addictive little box is working after the first of the year.
See ya.
[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited December 22, 1999).]
Rich, Sorry for misunderstanding.
Brasso, not saying I want to change system but by law you are forced to call for police, as now days you are not allowed to handle the situ yourself, especially where guns are involved.As to leos getting a free pass thats fine until it starts applying to felonies, its a dangerous road thats easy to drift off of, much more so that stealing a few big macks.
Thanks everyone esp the leo's who take a beating here occasionally and hope you guys stick around. Some of the posts get out of order and generalize too much and others sound too harsh, no excuses for it except were all human on this forum. [except fourdiamonds]And one more time hope you all have a safe xmas and hope this addictive little box is working after the first of the year.
See ya.
[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited December 22, 1999).]
I know quite a few leo's of our local pd, some are the best people you would ever want to meet, I have met some(mostly young ones) that would not give you the time of day because they feel that you are "below" them...I talked to a good friend of mine who has been on the police force for 12 years, and asked him what it was like. He told me of things that happen to them that made me understand why leo's sometimes go bad,or make them cross the line. Like how, even though they know going into the job that its very stressful, that its hard to realize just how stressful it can really be.He told me it was like joining any branch of the military,recruiters giving the gung-ho speech, telling about the training and the opportunities to visit foreign places, but they very seldom mention the fact that you may have to kill someone. Examples he told me about were things like, doing pat downs and finding a needle in a guys pocket that could have stuck him containing God knows what disease, going on a domestic dispute call, and a drunk fool comes at him with a knife or icepick, or how when asking potential witnesses about seeing someone getting assulted, everyone basicly turns their back an says "no, didnt see anything".
Maybe there are some police that dont deserve the badge, maybe there are some that become police just for the badge, gun, and power. But from what I see and here from other LEO'S these people dont usually last very long. If I put myself in their shoes I can understand why they do what they do, why they sometimes act the way they do. Its very hard for any person to be perfect all the time, especially seeing and doing the things these guys(and gals) are doing. He tells me about how hard it is to find dedicated people, how most are there to gain experience to get better, higher paying jobs (State Police, DEA,ATF). The police force of this town of 100,000+ only make 2500.00 a month BEFORE taxes,sure seems to me thats not alot of money for putting your life on the line.
I agree that there are some laws that need to be changed both for and against the benefit of us and the LEO'S. But we have to also remember that the laws were put there to protect US.Whether we think these laws are to our benefit or not, whether we think they infringe upon our rights, we have to understand that they were passed by human beings who like ourselves are not perfect. If we dont like these laws, then we can do something about them, just like the athiest woman who had prayer abolished in our schools,just like Sarah Brady, all we have to do is exercise our rights as citizens.
I think ill get off this soapbox now, Cuz
sorry if this makes no sense whatsoever, im not a writer...
Maybe there are some police that dont deserve the badge, maybe there are some that become police just for the badge, gun, and power. But from what I see and here from other LEO'S these people dont usually last very long. If I put myself in their shoes I can understand why they do what they do, why they sometimes act the way they do. Its very hard for any person to be perfect all the time, especially seeing and doing the things these guys(and gals) are doing. He tells me about how hard it is to find dedicated people, how most are there to gain experience to get better, higher paying jobs (State Police, DEA,ATF). The police force of this town of 100,000+ only make 2500.00 a month BEFORE taxes,sure seems to me thats not alot of money for putting your life on the line.
I agree that there are some laws that need to be changed both for and against the benefit of us and the LEO'S. But we have to also remember that the laws were put there to protect US.Whether we think these laws are to our benefit or not, whether we think they infringe upon our rights, we have to understand that they were passed by human beings who like ourselves are not perfect. If we dont like these laws, then we can do something about them, just like the athiest woman who had prayer abolished in our schools,just like Sarah Brady, all we have to do is exercise our rights as citizens.
I think ill get off this soapbox now, Cuz
sorry if this makes no sense whatsoever, im not a writer...
Been out of this debate since I last posted in the "no-knock" & "movie" thread. I wanted to do a decent job in my thinkings (& will probably flub that).
I sincerely appologize for my overgeneralization. Although the words I wrote were (perhaps) taken more out of context than I meant, rereading my posts, I have no qualms as to the negative reaction
they caused. I would have reacted similarly.
I was LEO upon a time & I did get into the "us versus them" mindset. You mostly have little contact with the good, decent people, having to spend the majority of your time dealing with the less desireables of our society. These latters are less than thankful for your enforcement of the law even if you do treat them with every dignity you can afford (as the situation allows). Even the good folk call you "pig," (now and again) as has happened here. Now hold on. We overgeneralized and catagorized some of our own good'uns as JBTs. Whether or not we meant to, we did in the generalization & those good LEOs here took it personally as would I, if the roles were reversed.
I was, upon a time, a JBT from the perspective of some. We had a job to do (rescuing hostages), we were trained how to do it with minimal losses to our own people (very dynamic entries & "everybody goes home" - most especially the hostage - you'd just as soon scrape the perp off your shoe), had orders to do it & did. From my perspective at the time, I was elated that we were "so bad" (we lost none). From the perspective of the perps (terrorists was our word) we were JBTs. They had instigated the "incident/s" but to make a statement against grave wrongs instigated against them by "us." Who was "right?"
I have filed charges & testified against another LEO for excessive use of force & I've had a rape victim crying in my arms awaiting forensic testing while a lawyer's posting bail. The dichotomies can drive you nuts.
I chose LEO as a profession because I wanted to be there when the good guys, in trouble, needing help immediately, got that help & who else better to do that LEO? Alas, that happens far too seldom & LEO get to do far too many "after action reports" rather than perform the main job they most likely joined to do. The one time you do get to make that difference - well, that's what it's all about - that one time.
There is a "wall of silence." There is "us"
making undeserved blanket statements against LEO. There are those "little extras" that LEO sometimes gets away with & there's the
"first time offender" that's committed 20 heineous crimes before he was caught that first time. None of it's right.
Tell you what. The more honest I am, the more umbrage I would take re the blanket statements thrown at my profession. That alone may give some testimony to those LEOs we have in our ranks.
I'm against no-knock raid except in certain, most specific, instances. I think the job can be done more efficently. That there are many that do go wrong is proof enough for me. The issue need be readdressed & fixed.
The vast majority LEO are good guys, I have no doubt & most every contact I've ever had with them only confirms my opinion. The majority of us (especially in this forum) are the good guys as well. That the current social climate turns us one against the other turns my stomach.
The debate we had could have been done so much better. I again applogize for my part in the escalation.
May each one of us do what we can to help turn this country around.
I for one, hope that The Administrator of this forum gets on the horn (keyboard) & calls our resident LEOs back. We need them and I want them back here.
I sincerely appologize for my overgeneralization. Although the words I wrote were (perhaps) taken more out of context than I meant, rereading my posts, I have no qualms as to the negative reaction
they caused. I would have reacted similarly.
I was LEO upon a time & I did get into the "us versus them" mindset. You mostly have little contact with the good, decent people, having to spend the majority of your time dealing with the less desireables of our society. These latters are less than thankful for your enforcement of the law even if you do treat them with every dignity you can afford (as the situation allows). Even the good folk call you "pig," (now and again) as has happened here. Now hold on. We overgeneralized and catagorized some of our own good'uns as JBTs. Whether or not we meant to, we did in the generalization & those good LEOs here took it personally as would I, if the roles were reversed.
I was, upon a time, a JBT from the perspective of some. We had a job to do (rescuing hostages), we were trained how to do it with minimal losses to our own people (very dynamic entries & "everybody goes home" - most especially the hostage - you'd just as soon scrape the perp off your shoe), had orders to do it & did. From my perspective at the time, I was elated that we were "so bad" (we lost none). From the perspective of the perps (terrorists was our word) we were JBTs. They had instigated the "incident/s" but to make a statement against grave wrongs instigated against them by "us." Who was "right?"
I have filed charges & testified against another LEO for excessive use of force & I've had a rape victim crying in my arms awaiting forensic testing while a lawyer's posting bail. The dichotomies can drive you nuts.
I chose LEO as a profession because I wanted to be there when the good guys, in trouble, needing help immediately, got that help & who else better to do that LEO? Alas, that happens far too seldom & LEO get to do far too many "after action reports" rather than perform the main job they most likely joined to do. The one time you do get to make that difference - well, that's what it's all about - that one time.
There is a "wall of silence." There is "us"
making undeserved blanket statements against LEO. There are those "little extras" that LEO sometimes gets away with & there's the
"first time offender" that's committed 20 heineous crimes before he was caught that first time. None of it's right.
Tell you what. The more honest I am, the more umbrage I would take re the blanket statements thrown at my profession. That alone may give some testimony to those LEOs we have in our ranks.
I'm against no-knock raid except in certain, most specific, instances. I think the job can be done more efficently. That there are many that do go wrong is proof enough for me. The issue need be readdressed & fixed.
The vast majority LEO are good guys, I have no doubt & most every contact I've ever had with them only confirms my opinion. The majority of us (especially in this forum) are the good guys as well. That the current social climate turns us one against the other turns my stomach.
The debate we had could have been done so much better. I again applogize for my part in the escalation.
May each one of us do what we can to help turn this country around.
I for one, hope that The Administrator of this forum gets on the horn (keyboard) & calls our resident LEOs back. We need them and I want them back here.
Rob Pincus
New member
Good Call, Brasso. I am right with ya, your description of the reason for why penalties are often stiffer for attacking/killing an LEO is spot on. It is about what LEOs represent, not that there individual bodies are somehow more important than the kid at the starbucks.....\
Rich, as always, your level headedness is appreciated in these threads...
------------------
-Essayons
Rich, as always, your level headedness is appreciated in these threads...
------------------
-Essayons
OkieGentleman
New member
Let me say this about almost all of the LEOs I have worked around for 27 years. They joined the PD/HP/USMS/FBI or what ever to serve the public and make a difference in the quality of life of their town/state/country. Them won't admit it, but that is the reason almost all of them became an LEO. Most of them saw law enforcement as "serving their community" and giving some of what they had back to the community. If you ever told them that most of them will tell you that you are full of it, but I feel that it is the truth.
All of them get a little cynical after "fighting the good fight" and seeing the result of little or no justice. They get tired of trying to hold back the tide with a spoon with a hole in it. Some of them quit. Some turn sour. Some just put down their head and go back to spooning the tide with a tired air about them. And some "God Bless Them All" get up in the morning and say today I am going to do it all right and the number of scum bags out loose are going to be lower tonite when I go home. Are they perfect? NO!! Do they tend to stick together? Yes!! If the last three "civilians" you dealt with had given you a raft of sh*t you tend to hang with the people you know -- other police officers, they may not be friends, but you know who they are and that they have the same shared experiences as you do. Are there knot heads in the department? Yes again, but they tend to less of a knothead then the average civilian knothead. Do I admire them? YES Envy them? NO They go places I would not voluntarily go and deal with people I cross the street to avoid. Do I stick up for them? Yes, they are the first line of defense against the animals of this world, my .45 is my second choice. My 2cts worth. AND A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ONE AND ALL!!
All of them get a little cynical after "fighting the good fight" and seeing the result of little or no justice. They get tired of trying to hold back the tide with a spoon with a hole in it. Some of them quit. Some turn sour. Some just put down their head and go back to spooning the tide with a tired air about them. And some "God Bless Them All" get up in the morning and say today I am going to do it all right and the number of scum bags out loose are going to be lower tonite when I go home. Are they perfect? NO!! Do they tend to stick together? Yes!! If the last three "civilians" you dealt with had given you a raft of sh*t you tend to hang with the people you know -- other police officers, they may not be friends, but you know who they are and that they have the same shared experiences as you do. Are there knot heads in the department? Yes again, but they tend to less of a knothead then the average civilian knothead. Do I admire them? YES Envy them? NO They go places I would not voluntarily go and deal with people I cross the street to avoid. Do I stick up for them? Yes, they are the first line of defense against the animals of this world, my .45 is my second choice. My 2cts worth. AND A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ONE AND ALL!!
I am sure none of us want to kill LEOs, but I'm not sure that some of them do not want to kill us. As an example, remember the FBI smiper at Ruby Ridge who looked through his ten power scope at Mrs. Weaver holding her baby in her arms and shot her dead. As far as I know he is still an Active FBI agent and has never been tried or disciplined by the FBI.
[This message has been edited by Hard Ball (edited December 25, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Hard Ball (edited December 25, 1999).]