No one on this forum want to kill leo's!

O

oberkommando

New member
Didn't make it in time to respond to all the replys on the raid threade before it closed. I didn't think anyone would take it personally. First I apologize if the language I used seemed too harsh towards leo's. Second if I wanted to kill them, I would begin with the six that are related to me in some way.
Father Reserve PD
Brother soon to enter academy
Cousin LEO
2ND Cousin CHP
Uncle Ret. homicide/SWAT SERG.
Uncles brother Ret. Undersheriff
Friend
1 Narc riverside county SO
2 Female, welfare fraud san bernardino SO

The general distrust I believe is towards the policies and inevitably the messengers are the one's who suffer. I believe the majority of police are good guys, it's just that some come off as if it's no big deal when one of the "civilians" get killed, but get very vocal when it' one of their own. The second reason for the apparent resentment is that as the police are being more and more heavily armed, us civis are being disarmed more and more. Look at the gun shows and gun shops [that are still left] people are stocking up for the uncertainty of the future. This is just a bad situ that will boil over one day.

My reply about the high cap mag is that one day a LE team will enter the wrong house and a blood bath will ensue. Likley on both sides, and this can be prevented by changing policies before this happens.

Some here use NAZI'S as a parallel because most were just following orders of their superiors and probably were not all evil, I know a lot thought hitler and his laws and views were crazy. My point being when you enforce laws that are starting to infringe upon a peoples rights bad things happen for all.

Again no offence meant to any leo's.

And BTW I have emailed the american pediatrics academy and told them they support Nazi doctor tactics by supporting disarmament of citizens therby creating a situ that will eventually get [the people] hurt or killed.

[This message has been edited by oberkommando (edited December 20, 1999).]
 
I totally agree about the double-standard attitude present not only with the police but in the judicial system. An innocent citizen getting killed is just another day, but a COP getting killed is a tragedy. Sorry, I disagree. Cops get training, wear body armor, carry guns and know when they take the job that it's a dangerous one. If a cop gets killed it is a very bad thing, but nowhere NEAR as bad a thing as some kid dying. And it is even worse when cops, who are paid, supposedly, to protect and serve, kill an innocent citizen "by mistake."
I have nothing against individual police officers and know and like many, but the collective mindset of the law enforcement community leaves a lot to be desired.
 
RikWriter:

Amen, Amen and Amen!

Many LEOs in my hometown are people just like me. Others though, and one is too many mind you, think they stand just a few notches higher than us common citizens. As was said before. The LE community had better realise that we, the politely and legally armed society, are of benefit to them and are on the same team as them.
 
It is a tradgedy whenever ANY peaceful citizen loses their life, period. Nobody here wants anyone else to visit harm whether LEO or grandma. We are committed to the protection and value of human life. How could any of us truly wish harm upon another? There are times when it is absolutley, unavoidably necessary. Those times are very rare. Like those LEO's we pray for, let us avoid it at many costs. PS. A warrant is not permission from God.
 
FWIW, I oppose laws that impose greater penalties for killing a police officer (and I used to be one). A police officer has a gun, baton, spray, and maybe a vest. If we pass laws only for the protection of police -
What protection does the poor high school girl in Starbucks have?

What protection does the guy in the 7-11 have whose company policy prohibits even fighting back with fists?

What protection does the nurse getting off shift at midnight have in the hospital parking lot?

The sleaze bag who kills those people won't even come near a cop. Yet some police seem to feel that those people do not matter. No funeral with long lines of blue and red lights; no bagpipes; no firing squad. Just a weeping mother, who doesn't count either.

If the killer comes in and confesses, and someone feels like writing it down, maybe some DA will take it to court, and maybe some police officer will consider showing up to testify, and maybe the sleaze bag will be convicted, and maybe (if he hasn't bought the judge) will even get sentenced to thirty days.

Police, like doctors, have to be somewhat dispassionate. Too many think that means not giving a damn.

Jim
 
The reason it is just not another day when a cop gets killed is because these are the people who are not just going to work at the local 7-11 but are really putting their life on the line every day.....It is amazing to me to see how when people get pulled over or get searched by the cops it is like a total violation of their rights...But then when their house or car gets broken into or they get mugged on the street thoes same people expect the cops to help them out in ALL ASPECTS of their job.....I mean come on most LEO's are doing their job and doing it well....
 
I am already 42 years old and I believe I have enough mind to understand and has all the training to face the reality of life against all odds.

I was involve in several incidents which LEOS has questioned me but it turns out all to be good and on the end they even appreciated me.

BUT many LEOs feels they are the LAW and untouchable perhaps some of them lacked knowledge about the Law. Last night I went back to read our Phils constitution particularly the Bill of Rights and it touches me about all the wordings. That if only people in authority will truly abide all those Articles and section embodied thereon, then there is no so much problems as everyone will respect one another. But how many really knows its own bill of rights given to him by the Almighty God and the people that promulgated the Laws of the land.
-I see some LEOS also looks pitiful hardly meet both ends from their salary.
-I've seen some also just new in the service but have all the amnenities in life, good cars, good houses, several mistress but before entering the service he is just an ordinary guy. Whereas me who is earning 7 times higher then their salaries could even hardly meet both ends and keep coming back to Saudi Arabia to work.
-I've seen LEOS, who are helpful, polite and even die because of true service in the protection of law and the public interest in General.
-I paid some leos when they tried to make problem with me and I just paid them not to distract my work abroad for I consider the amount minimal compared to the dollar I earned. If I fight them in court for sure I will win but I don't like to waste my time when the benefits I get is greater.
-I've read and witness cops killing innocent civilians but some were able to get away from the law. Some also were convicted.
-I've read civilians killed a cops for a reason I do not know but they were severely punished.

With the above I think it will give a summary what is a cop and a civilian.

Thanks



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited December 21, 1999).]
 
Schenge said:
>>The reason it is just not another day when a cop gets killed is because these are the people who are not just going to work at the local 7-11 but are really putting their life on the line every day....<<

Sorry, that is totally ass-backwards. The cop takes his job KNOWING BEFOREHAND that there is a chance he could get hurt or killed. That kid working at the 7/11 has no such expectation and neither should she.
 
I both have pros and cons about LE's. If we could rid ourselves of the political end of these departments things would change.
For instance; the Fraternal Order fo Police is a dangerous group. Police chiefs like the baffoons that are in L.A., past and present. Many of the major cities are the same way. Most, and I say Most, of the street LE's are decent. The newer ones worry me a little.

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From my cold dead hands.
 
Hi Scenge:
"It is amazing to me to see how when people get pulled over or get searched by the cops it is like a total violation of their rights..."

--The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.--


"But then when their house or car gets broken into or they get mugged on the street those same people expect the cops to help them out in ALL ASPECTS of their job..."

I have never contacted the Police at any time that the LAW didn't require it. I alone am *UNDER LAW* responsible for my safety and well being.

I was a MP. I was that guy that a lot of you knew or maybe still work with. The fellow who never starched his uniform because the reg prohibits it even though it pissed off the C.O. I was that fellow who wouldn't bust that Master Sgt just back from 17 years in Korea and month away from deros who wasn't aware of the -absolutly right and justified- trendy, new (at the time) posture to dwi who got drunk at the senior nco club and ran off the road, but rather gave him a dressing down and a ride home.

I watched my fellow MPs lie, falsify sworn statements, and so on to get a solid blotter entry. And I wasn't okay with it. A lot of these types had jobs waiting for them in their home towns with the local pd and they wanted a good bust record, and didn't much care how they got it.

During my tour in Germany, my patrol partner got shot in the hand with a .25 at extremely close range. Didn't see the piece when he went to cuff the baddie. He screamed like a mad man. I lost it. I beat the perp within an inch, with my fists, I swear. With my partner running around holding his hand screaming he'd been shot there was no one there to pull me off this little piece of dirt, thankfully I came to my senses before I killed him.

I never unholstered my weapon, I never even thought about it, I just wanted a piece of that guys butt, and I got it too.

This happened off base and the first responders were the local polizei and an ambulance crew, the polizei, (whom I knew) wanted to take me out drinking, they were very proud of me. I was less so, presented myself to my Provost Marshall and asked to be relived of duty, and that was granted, I wrote a statement that was as true as I was able to recall and he signed it. I was never charged, and under the UCMJ, I should have been. The perp is still at Levenworth I think.

I would have been completely justified in putting a round in the fellow, there is no doubt about that. But that is not what I did. What I did is beat him, I don't mean subdue, I mean beat. That is not lawful, nor should it be. The UCMJ offers protection for all, very like our law of the land. No one is exempt from the law, no one.

My partner was okay by the way, thankfully, his hand hurt like hell for a while and he has a neat little souvenier. We were both moved into vehicle reg for a while, and we got along fine. No personality conflicts. No sad ending. But I did learn something important about myself. What I learned (among other things) is I that my temperment is better suited to the field than to patrol.

I was an MP, I had career options, as a lot of you know, there are all kinds of lateral moves a soldier with a good record can make. Civilian law enforcement is not that way. What do you do with a cop who learns that he has a propensity for abusive behavior?

As has been stated clearly, we are all human, we all make mistakes, and yes, special allowances made for LEOs don't offend me at all. What does offend me and others I believe is the implied attitude that cops are exempt from the law.

I only have my limited experience to draw against. There clearly is a propensity among some people to scream bloody murder whenever LE does something remotely questionable. There is also a propensity for LE to claim that everything they do is for the betterment of society, when there are clearly times when actions are taken that are not.
 
Guys-
So far it's OK, but I'm gonna be real unhappy if this thread turns into another "Us vs Them" fest. I'm personally a little tired of some taking every opportunity to knock LEO's while others see the badge as a get outta jail free card for those who are "just following orders".

Time to grow up, people. Your country demands it and your kids deserve it. There is no qualification to being a citizen....IOW, we're all Americans. How about we start showing it? The concept of one death being more important than another death is an absurdity and an insult to the precepts of our Nation. Wanna take one death more personally...you have that right. However, that right does not mean your position is logical or moral....just personal.

This LEO vs Non-LEO rage is extremely dangerous to both sides....neither is gonna survive the next few decades without the support of the other. The only winners will be enemies to all of us.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited December 21, 1999).]
 
bobo, and what would YOU tell the mother of that 18 year old who gets killed working at the 7/11? "Oh well, at least you weren't a cop?"
Rich, sorry, don't mean for this to be "us vs them" but that is exactly the mentality I see among many cops. I don't WANT it to be Us V Them, I want them to realize they ARE us.
 
Rich: thank you for those words, and well spoken, hope your words don't fall onto deaf ears and eyes... happy holidays to all.
 
Thanks all, especially Oberkommando since we're both in Kali. I'll sleep better tonight. ;)

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Rich, I haven't seen an "us vs. them" in these threads, so much as a general agreement that there are a few bad apples in the world of LEOs, just as there are--percentage-wise--a few bad apples in the non-LEO world. And, of course, there has been some nit-picking from both "sides".

Part of the problem for LEOs is that they tend to meet people under bad conditions. Doesn't matter if it's victim or perp. And when a routine $25 traffic stop can turn into violence, I can understand a certain amount of antsiness. When one spends a fair percent of one's career in being lied to, one can become just a wee tad cynical about Homo Sap.

What does disturb me is the propensity for the high-adrenalin situations created by official policy. I refer to the "dynamic entry" situations with SWAT-type groups. I read of too many situations where it seems that poor judgement was used as to that particular need, as opposed to waiting to make the arrest away from a residence.

When it's a case of "an informant said..." and there is no further investigation but instead a "raid", I question the judgement.

Another aspect is the comment from a friend of mine, a graduate of FLETC. I asked about any "us vs. them" on the part of the training itself. He reflected for a moment and said, "Well, yeah, come to think of it, there was."

And sometimes situations occur from just dumb luck. By and large, my county has had pretty doggoned good folks in its Sheriff's Office for the 27 years I've been rattin' around here. The next-door county watched its well-respected Sheriff go away for life without parole for his part in a deal involving one metric ton of pure cocaine. Go figure. (And calculate the street value of THAT deal!)
 
Art-
My position on no-knocks is record...They shouldn't be done.

My position about bad people is record...They shouldn't be among us.

However, when someone points to the NRA because of a bad citizen shooting, my hackles go up....the same as they do when someone points to LEO's because of a bad police shooting.

The key is knowing your audience. There's lots of liberals, fascists and crazies out there....some wear military uniforms; some wear badges; some wear civies. But few of them last here.

So who are we slamming on TFL when we get personal or general?
Rich
 
4V50/GARY, No problem, thanks for reading my post. Have a happy holiday.


Not meaning to beat a dead dog, but must ask Rich to enlighten me, as it apears he took my post as a knock against LEO's.

"while others see the badge as a get outta jail free card for those who are "just following orders".

Rich, perhaps you could clarify your get outta jail line. In reference to my post about the just following orders bit.I must be misunderstanding it. Are these "others" police administrator's thinking their guys will get off after commiting crimes, or joe blow thinking all cops do whatever they want with impunity?OR,

Are you saying there are no fringe benefits to the "brass pass" oh I mean badge. If you are, you are sadly mistaken as I've personally seen it and have been helped out by it myself, and with no names being mentioned I have heard LEO'S themselves talk about getting out of tickets [and dwi] with the badge.And again not naming anyone we all don't know anyway, but I believe a certain group of individuals have used the "just following orders" defence in the past. When we forget these things history tends to repeat itself. Maybe I'm mistaken?

At our current rate one day the line will be drawn at who will confiscate and who will not, and if your in doubt about this move to kalifornia. I believe this is where a lot of anxiety is stemming from, and a lot of it is taken out wrongly on law enforcement. LEO's are either with the constitution or against it on that day.

Really enjoy a great forum you have created, just wanted to clarify again that I have no ill will towards LEO's, Merry x-mas Rich and family.
 
From my perspective, it seems that many of you are unable to see a difference between the cop the person, and the cop the representative of law and order. It is not worse for a cop to be killed because as a person he/she is better than anyone else. It is worse because when a cop is killed, assaulted, or threatened, it is the law, the cosntitution, and society that is being killed, assaulted, or threatened. If you don't respect a police officer enough not to assault them, then you sure as hell don't respect anyone else. The police officer is not a person, he/she is the law manifested in human form. They come with human weaknesses, but they are still the law. Literally. Of course it should be considered worse when they are attacked. The social contract and society as a whole is what is being attacked. Not just the person. They are held to a higher standard not only socially, but legally as well. Both to the good and the bad of the person behind the badge. Where is the binding effect of the law without them?

Do cops get out of tickets because they are cops? Sure. Do friends of cops get out of tickets? Yes. Do workers at McDonalds get free food? You bet. Do doctors pay for consultations and services from fellow doctors? No. Do mechanics pay to have their cars worked on at the shop? No. Are cops held to a higher standard than other professional groups? Yep. If they weren't, you wouldn't be upset because they get out of a few tickets.

[This message has been edited by Brasso (edited December 22, 1999).]
 
Somebody said something about the FOP, we'll let me say this. The FOP or PBA does a lot for LEOs even if they don't realize it. Pay your dues and get involved in shooting. Now do you want Mayberry's city attorney to represent you in all matters. Bear in mind he's only done real estate and wills etc, or do you want the FOP/PBA to provide you with counsel who has handled 20 other officer involved shootings in the state.

Let's say your city isn't giving raises to PD because it's a high cost dept, cars, uniforms, ammo, training. Yet they are giving raises to the clerks at city hall. Who are you going to call besides the Public Employees Relations Committee? Damn right your PBA/FOP rep gets the call.

Want me to go on? Okay your a (politically incorrect) smoker, whose job doesn't allow for personal (ie Federal 15 min per 4 hour) breaks. Guess who goes to bat for a designated smoking area for you? YUP the PBA/FOP.

Getting Married and all the reception halls want beaucoup bucks, Guess who'll give you use of the hall for free, PBA/FOP.

FOP/PBA does a lot for people in uniform than the public realizes.

Gator

Damn this FOP membership card really made my wallet a little bigger all of a sudden.


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Root Hog or Die Poor
 
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