Here something on the new but old sniper scope
http://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/marines-get-new-sniper-scope
http://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/marines-get-new-sniper-scope
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No More than 10 Power?
- Thread starter GI Sandv
- Start date
603Country
New member
OldRoper, thanks for the article. Wow, the Corps officially now has a big heavy variable scope. Cool. Maybe this old Jarhead (me) was already doing some cutting edge thinking when I got my big heavy variable scopes (which really aren't big and heavy at all).
I knew that M40A3 was heavy, but I sure didn't know it weighed 19 pounds. I'm glad I'm not humping the hills with it.
I knew that M40A3 was heavy, but I sure didn't know it weighed 19 pounds. I'm glad I'm not humping the hills with it.
I will assume the scope is for hunting. I have found a Leupold Vari-X III 2.5 x 8 is a terrific scope and excellent value for deer, elk, bear, etc., so I have those scopes on my .270 Win., 7mm Rem. Mag, and .300 Win. Mag. There are scopes better than Leupold's best, but they command premium prices, e.g., Nightforce, Swarovski, and Schmidt Bender.
I've seen an awful lot of Nightforce scopes at benchrest competitions that have a hell of a lot more than 10x magnification.
Just watched a few when I happened to be there, I'm not a competitor.
But, it would be interesting to hear some facts regarding 1000 yard record holders and the optics on their rifles.
IMO, if you can afford a variable, there is no downside to having more power available if conditions permit for a more precise point of aim.
Having plugged a few shots at 1000 yards- looking through a 10x scope- it's a guesstimate as to where the center of the plate is.
Just watched a few when I happened to be there, I'm not a competitor.
But, it would be interesting to hear some facts regarding 1000 yard record holders and the optics on their rifles.
IMO, if you can afford a variable, there is no downside to having more power available if conditions permit for a more precise point of aim.
Having plugged a few shots at 1000 yards- looking through a 10x scope- it's a guesstimate as to where the center of the plate is.
4runnerman
New member
I've seen an awful lot of Nightforce scopes at benchrest competitions that have a hell of a lot more than 10x magnification
Tobnpr-You nailed it right on the head. There was another post about most bench shooters using straight power not variable power scopes. I shoot comp and find that not to be the case at all. Most of them are using variable power scopes. And Yes Nightforce,Sightron are the 2 top scopes i am seeing out there. Nightforce= 12-46x56 power and Sightron= 8-32x56 power. I do see a few straight 36 power also
Tobnpr-You nailed it right on the head. There was another post about most bench shooters using straight power not variable power scopes. I shoot comp and find that not to be the case at all. Most of them are using variable power scopes. And Yes Nightforce,Sightron are the 2 top scopes i am seeing out there. Nightforce= 12-46x56 power and Sightron= 8-32x56 power. I do see a few straight 36 power also
mapsjanhere
New member
Target size is everything. The trained sniper needs to aim at the center of a 12" x 18" target at 1000 yards max. If he can hold 1 MOA with his weapon that's an effective hit. With a 10X scope that the same as shooting that target with an open sight at 100, and most beginners can do that. The sniper also has a spotting scope and/or a range finder available, and typically can take his time for a shot. Few opposing soldiers are able to get a whiff of your smell, even after a week in the field.
The hunter on the other hand aims at a 2"x2" spot near the lower corner of the target; any hits outside that area mean tracking a wounded target and hoping it runs out of energy before you do. And that deadly area becomes pretty small once your distance goes past 200 yards. He also needs to use his scope to clearly identify the target (white tail or mule, 4 point or spike). With all the other influences that come with long distance shooting, you really don't want to add lack of magnification to your problems.
The hunter on the other hand aims at a 2"x2" spot near the lower corner of the target; any hits outside that area mean tracking a wounded target and hoping it runs out of energy before you do. And that deadly area becomes pretty small once your distance goes past 200 yards. He also needs to use his scope to clearly identify the target (white tail or mule, 4 point or spike). With all the other influences that come with long distance shooting, you really don't want to add lack of magnification to your problems.
L_Killkenny
New member
The hunter on the other hand aims at a 2"x2" spot near the lower corner of the target; any hits outside that area mean tracking a wounded target and hoping it runs out of energy before you do. And that deadly area becomes pretty small once your distance goes past 200 yards. He also needs to use his scope to clearly identify the target (white tail or mule, 4 point or spike). With all the other influences that come with long distance shooting, you really don't want to add lack of magnification to your problems.
Not so fast there Hoss, "aims at a 2"x2" spot"? Not hardly. The vitals on big game are much much bigger than 2"x 2". Heck, even coyotes have much bigger vitals than 2"x 2". "Paper plate" accuracy(shooter/gun combo) is adequate. Know what range you can consistantly do that and you're good to go.
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Here is the vital size of most animals we hunt in this country.
Assuming the smallest animal, if you can hold 4 inchs off hand (which is hard to do) you're good to 200 yards.
If you get some sort of rest, prone, kneeling, etc and cut your hold to 2 inches you can extend that range to about 400. In my opinion there is no need to hunt further then that.
Vital Size:
• Pronghorn antelope = 8.5"-9"
• Small deer = 8.5"-9"
• Medium size deer = 10"-11"
• Large deer = 11"-12"
• North American wild sheep = 12"-13"
• Mountain goat = 13"-14.5"
• Caribou = 14.5"-15.5"
• Elk = 14.5"-15.5"
• Moose = 18"-21.5"
Assuming the smallest animal, if you can hold 4 inchs off hand (which is hard to do) you're good to 200 yards.
If you get some sort of rest, prone, kneeling, etc and cut your hold to 2 inches you can extend that range to about 400. In my opinion there is no need to hunt further then that.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
2 inches by 2 inches!?
Good Lord! You don't need that kind of accuracy to kill a squirrel!
I understand "Aim small, miss small." but that's a LOOOooong way from "any hits outside that area mean tracking a wounded target and hoping it runs out of energy before you do."
Good Lord! You don't need that kind of accuracy to kill a squirrel!
I understand "Aim small, miss small." but that's a LOOOooong way from "any hits outside that area mean tracking a wounded target and hoping it runs out of energy before you do."
mapsjanhere
New member
Sure you will kill most animals if you hit anywhere in the chest or belly area. At some point. Maybe you'll find it. Maybe not. Doesn't use the tag if you can't find it...
I like my animals to drop where I shoot, not two counties over. And that means aiming for that 2x2 area.
I like my animals to drop where I shoot, not two counties over. And that means aiming for that 2x2 area.
Nutshell,your eye pupil varies with light.Approx 7 mm in darkness,5mm low light,down to 2,maybe 2.5 in bright light.If the exit pupil of your scope is smaller than your eye pupil in the given light,image quality degrades.
"Degrades" I think is an understatement. Anytime your pupil moves outside of the patch of light cast by the scope ("exit pupil"), the image vignettes (goes black at one edge. So as you look off center, part of the image goes away. That's if you're close to eye pupil = exit pupil.
If your pupil is smaller than the exit pupil, then the entire edge is gone and the FOV will most likely go completely black if you look off-center. It's bordering on unusable.
If I did most of my work at dawn and dusk, I'd live and die by:
Objective/magnfication > 7
Thanks for all the responses. I don't have a specific purpose in mind with raising the questions I did. I'm just curious and trying to understand people's experience with scopes before I even consider buying one. I'm sure I'll end up with more than one. But at first, I'd like a good, utilitarian scope. There aren't many places I can shoot around here that are over a few hundred yards, so higher magnification might not be a high priority. Although I do enjoy punching paper, I'm not too worried at this point about creating ragged holes in the center of a target at 200 yards. Reasonably close to the center is fine with me. As I said, I prefer utilitarian and will likely start with something fairly simple, either a fixed 4x or 6x, or perhaps a 3-9x. Quality of glass will likely influence my decision as much as power.
I guess one other question I have is whether most/all modern day scopes retain their zero reliably. I know some cheaper red dots have problems with zero creep. I don't want to get something somewhat cheap and then find out that it doesn't retain zero. What types of characteristics affect this?
I guess one other question I have is whether most/all modern day scopes retain their zero reliably. I know some cheaper red dots have problems with zero creep. I don't want to get something somewhat cheap and then find out that it doesn't retain zero. What types of characteristics affect this?
4runnerman
New member
I guess one other question I have is whether most/all modern day scopes retain their zero reliably. I know some cheaper red dots have problems with zero creep. I don't want to get something somewhat cheap and then find out that it doesn't retain zero. What types of characteristics affect this
This i have found is where Quality (cost ) comes into play. To get great tracking you are going to need to spend some green. If you sight your scope in and use hold over you will be safe with a mid range scope. Do the box test when you get it sighted in and you will see right away what kind of reliability you are going to have.
m16tackdriver
Inactive
My longest range elk kill was about 840m with my Rem 700 .300 Win Mag with a 6-24 x 50 scope. Your friend is correct about mirage, but depending on the temperature, you can still see a pretty distinct mirage at 10x too. The deserts of Iraq were notorious for it in the summertime.
The M24 I carried in Iraq had a Leupold Mk IV M3 3-10x 40 on it. It was a superb scope. The same scope was used on the M82/M107 as well. I can not speak for the Marines, but 10x scopes are for the most part the longest used on US Army standard issue sniper rifles.
In the end, 10x seems to be perfectly adequate for most applications. If you want to varmint hunt at 800m, you would do well to use something with more optical "reach".
The M24 I carried in Iraq had a Leupold Mk IV M3 3-10x 40 on it. It was a superb scope. The same scope was used on the M82/M107 as well. I can not speak for the Marines, but 10x scopes are for the most part the longest used on US Army standard issue sniper rifles.
In the end, 10x seems to be perfectly adequate for most applications. If you want to varmint hunt at 800m, you would do well to use something with more optical "reach".