No more ftf gun sales/trades

Even if you did the transfer through an FFL only the first retail sale is going to show up in a trace.

Manufacturer to wholesaler to FFL to retail buyer.

If the gun went to an FFL again it is not going to show up in the trace.
They do not contact every FFL and ask them to see if they ever sold a gun.
They follow the paper trail to the initial retail sale.

Why do you care anyway?

As long as you did not knowingly sell it to prohibited person and followed the law you did nothing wrong.
Click to expand...

That pretty much sums it up!

I bought a 357 revolver years ago, and ended up selling it at a gun show to a FFL dealer. Years later I visited the gun shop that I had bought it from, and the guy asked me what I ever did with that 357. I said, I sold it. He asked me if I got a phone call from the FBI or anyone, and I told him No. He said, you might get a phone call, because they called him, and asked who he sold it too. He said that they told him that it was used in a crime.

That's all that ever came of it, and I suppose the only thing that might of happened, was that if they called me, they'd just me ask who I sold it to.

DBAR
 
Hi, KellyTTE,

Thanks for the info. I always wondered about that phrase, and now I know.

Hi, guys,

Of course the police can't check all the dealers for a subsequent sale. But if the last known owner says "I sold it to Joe's Gun Shop", they will likely mark him off the list and go to check Joe's books.

And an FtF sale might be quite legal. But if the last known owner tells the police that "I sold it to some guy I don't remember", tells them they have no evidence, and to go do something to themselves, the police might just wonder if he has something to hide, like his own involvement in a crime.

Hi, 9x19,

You might be right in some ordinary crime, but in some circumstances, I can guarantee that they WILL track the gun through every owner as far as they can and they WILL lean on former owners until they get answers.

Jim
 
Even if you did the transfer through an FFL only the first retail sale is going to show up in a trace.

Manufacturer to wholesaler to FFL to retail buyer.

If the gun went to an FFL again it is not going to show up in the trace.
Click to expand...

That doesn't add up in my head :confused:
The gun was bought thru Gunbroker USED & delivered to my FFL then to me--
My dealer certianly was'nt the first to get it new from a wholesaler -
 
I know in Virginia, there is no documentation required for a FTF sale. Seller and buyer are expected to take reasonable steps to ensure they are both state residents and are lawfully eligible to own the weapon in question, but exactly what that should involve is up to the persons making the exchange.

As far as making and keeping some form of bill of sale, I think that would prove about as valuable as the cost of the paper it was written on. If there is evidence that you were involved in the crime, or knowingly sold to someone who was not eligible for a state FTF (eg. to a resident of a neighboring state instead), that bill of sale won't mean squat.

In the absence of any evidence linking you to the crime, or implicating an illegal sale, you should not have any worries.

I can understand the emotional angst though Hoss. It would certainly weigh on anyone's mind if that kind of information got back to them. No, your not responsible for what happens to the weapon once you legally sell or trade it, but it would still be unpleasant to know something that was once yours was used by some miscreant in a criminal act.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can understand the emotional angst though Hoss. It would certainly weigh on anyone's mind if that kind of information got back to them. No, your not responsible for what happens to the weapon once you legally sell or trade it, but it would still be unpleasant to know something that was once yours was used by some miscreant in a criminal act.
Click to expand...

THANK YOU
 
I have only sold/traded a couple of guns but I wanted a CYA form in case one of guns was ever used in a crime. I got the info off the buyers driver's license and CCW Permit. I have never had anyone refuse to do this and if they did, I wouldn't sell the gun.

I downloaded this form off the Internet as an Adobe file. Sorry, I don't have the link to it any longer.


FIREARM BILL OF SALE
Buyer certifies that they are not restricted or forbidden by law to own a firearm and buyer states that he/she:
• Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition.
Full Name _________________________________________ Signature _______________________________________
Firearm(s) sold
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Buyer Seller
(NAME) (NAME)
(ADDRESS) (ADDRESS)
(DL) (DL)
(CWL) (CWL)
(Contact #) (Contact #)
I understand the firearm is sold AS-IS and no warranty has been implied or given. Firearm should be inspected by a
competent gunsmith prior to using. Seller not responsible for any damages incurred or caused by the use of this firearm.
Sale Conditions: _____________________________________________________________________________________
Buyer Signature:_________________________________ Seller Signature:_____________________________________
Sale Date
 
A lot of stolen guns are used in crimes. I had a Dan Wesson 357 stolen in 1984, I was contacted by an Indianapolis homicide detective in 1994, even though I was living in Las Vegas, and was just lucky that I had the Harris county incident # in my wallet.That gun was missing the barrel, grips and had the serial# filed off.Also had been sitting under water in Michigan.I inquired if I would get it returned, his answer, I wouldn't want it!
 
My FTFs go like this. I meet the buyer. I look at him and decide if he/she looks fishy/off. If I feel good at this point, I ask to see their Driver's license to check that they are a state resident and of legal age. I then ask if they have ever been convicted of a felony and are legal to own a gun. If all that passes muster, THEN I will sell to them. Did that last night in the Police station parking lot!
 
I think that it is always a good idea to have a bill of sale and anything like a drivers license or picture of the person buying it. There are many people that could turn around and try to sue you (families of victims, organizations...) because you did not take adequate precaution when selling the weapon. Nowadays one must protect oneself in many ways. I may be a little paranoid about this but I had my own brother sign a bill of sale and made a copy of his drivers license. He had no problems with this and most honest people should not either. Of course there are some that would like the no ask no tell policy for different reasons, and as somebody before stated, this can will back to you.
 
As my previous posts indicate, I rarely sold FtF even when it was legal in this state. But one time, I did make a deal. I pulled out a copy of a 4473, which had no legal validity at all, but which I used to record a buyer's information. The prospective buyer took one look at a piece of paper, called me a few choice names, and took off running. Anyone think he just might not have been a good guy? I admit that I don't really mind going through a dealer.

Jim
 
I bought a 38 super in Ga in 1968 sold it in Co . in 1974 about a year later FBI was at my door. Used in a bank robbery in Seattle . All they wanted to know was did I remember who I sold it to . I did and they went to find him. Last I ever heard.
I do FTF all the time and will keep on Did one a couple weeks ago.
 
And an FtF sale might be quite legal. But if the last known owner tells the police that "I sold it to some guy I don't remember", tells them they have no evidence, and to go do something to themselves, the police might just wonder if he has something to hide, like his own involvement in a crime.
Click to expand...

In some, if not most cases, when you sell a gun it's to someone you don't know, and if that's the case and the gun was used in a crime, then there is usually no evidence pointing to you (the seller).

I sold a gun that was used in a crime in Wichita KS, and the police got the guy. They traced the gun to the orginal dealer, and asked who he sold it to. The dealer gave them my information. I live in Missouri, hundreds of miles away, and the guy probably already told the police where he got the gun, so there was no evidence pointing at me that would of involved me in any illegal actions. I think the police, or FBI had already gotten the information they needed, and had no reason to even contact me.

I don't know about many State Laws regarding individual gun sales, but I do know that in Missouri, we can sell guns without any paper work to anyone we want to as long as the sale is made in good faith. That means, as long as the buyer tells me who he is, and that he's not a felon, I can sell him a gun. I always do a bill of sale, and I always ck ID's, and that pretty much covers my butt.

Thanks,
DBAR
 
If you are out of the trace chain, fine.

But I will say again, if a gun that can be traced to you is used in a high enough profile crime and tracing the gun is a possible lead to the criminal, you can stonewall all you want, and quote the law until you are blue in the face, and talk about evidence all you want, but the cops or FBI or Secret Service will lean on you so hard you will wish you never saw that gun or ever sold it to some guy whose name you never asked.

Jim
 
Jim,
What are you talking about?
You watch WAY too much TV.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily.

In '88 or '89 my dad was living in his brother's basement. In the middle of the day, one of their neighbors noticed two guys moving quickly through the house - taking armloads of stuff to the garage, and out the back door.

Several minutes later, one of the perps was met at the back fence with the barrel of a S&W .357 Mag. The other perp was trying to start my uncle's Trans Am full of 'loot' in the garage, when he was met by the other officer.

As thieves often do... they had ignored the actual high-dollar weapons, and tried to steal only those that they would be able to move on the street - handguns and my dad's ARs. I think the total they had tried to steal was 17 firearms (aside from the electronics, money, etc...).

What turned the situation bad, was a claim by the thief in possession of 7 pistols, that he had paid my dad for them, but never received the pistols. Since my dad had been running a small-time business with an FFL a couple years earlier, they turned to him. Almost all of the pistols in question had, in fact, come into my dad's possession during the time he had his FFL. He became the bad guy, because of a single error in his bound book. When he let his FFL expire, and shut down the business, the never properly transfered one of the pistols.

The police viewed the improper transfer as illegal activity, and evidence that the thief's story could be true. And the nightmare began.

A tiny little error, combined with a "lucky" story by one of the thieves meant my dad didn't see his pistols again for almost 2 years. He also had to deal with being investigated, himself; and spend every dime he had on a lawyer.

Two years in a police locker doesn't do firearms any good. When everything finally came out in the wash, and they cleared my dad... The pistols were beat to hell, covered in rust pitting, and several had been fired (more than needed for ballistics testing).

Several years later, a rifle that went through my dad's FFL and had been passed through the family before being sold FTF, ended up being used during a convenience store robbery. Guess what? All that crap from the home robbery came back. He was reinvestigated, and had to deal with the nightmare for several more months.

A trace, or lack of trace, can be the difference between several years of hell, and sleeping soundly. No one in my family will do a face-to-face transfer now, without a copy of the other party's ID. If they refuse - we don't do business with them.
 
If I'm buying a gun ftf I'll let the seller do a bill of sale and let him look at my identification, but under no circumstances will I let him take a picture or record any numbers off it.
 
But I will say again, if a gun that can be traced to you is used in a high enough profile crime and tracing the gun is a possible lead to the criminal, you can stonewall all you want, and quote the law until you are blue in the face, and talk about evidence all you want, but the cops or FBI or Secret Service will lean on you so hard you will wish you never saw that gun or ever sold it to some guy whose name you never asked.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about selling a gun to someone without knowing the individuals name, and without verifying the individuals ID?

FrankenMauser,

That's a very interesting story, to say the least.

When it comes to FFL's, and Bound Books, there's a lot more to becareful about, and the one mistake your Father made, was a very costly one! Had his Bound Book been in good order, I'm sure the out come would have been different. With that said, I don't collect drivers licenses, but I do make a Bill of Sale that gets signed by both parties, and I do verify ID. It's better to be safe than sorry!

DBAR
 
Hi, 9x19,

You might be right in some ordinary crime, but in some circumstances, I can guarantee that they WILL track the gun through every owner as far as they can and they WILL lean on former owners until they get answers.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

That's what lawyers are for... to lean back! There is no requirement in Texas to record FTF transactions, so any leaning is going to be actionable against the LEO and their department.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top