No more ftf gun sales/trades

H

Hoss Fly

Moderator
Sold or traded sum handgun back in '04 here in Texas that just showed up----
AS A MURDER WEAPON
My dealer called today to let me know it was recovered & still in my name

From this moment on NO deals dun less thru a FFL - DAM the FTF stuff
Nuthin that shoots leaves my hands without bein transfered to nuther name :mad:
 
Don't give up so easily

Take a look at this Bill of Sale. Make two copies and fill in the blanks and print it. Then, verify the buyer's identification before he/she signs and keep a copy for yourself. I'm definitely not a lawyer but I believe, that under current Texas law, you're completely covered.

http://texasguntrader.com/billofsale.pdf

I used one, even when I sold to my son-in-law. Ain't nothing like a paper trail.
 
Take a look at this Bill of Sale. Make two copies and fill in the blanks and print it. Then, verify the buyer's identification before he/she signs and keep a copy for yourself. I'm definitely not a lawyer but I believe, that under current Texas law, you're completely covered.

http://texasguntrader.com/billofsale.pdf

I used one, even when I sold to my son-in-law. Ain't nothing like a paper trail.
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Did you miss the '04 part :confused:
 
Hi, Tarheel,

I don't know the circumstances of Hoss Fly's original sale, but the whole idea of a face-to-face transfer is often to avoid any kind of paper trail, with no questions asked and none answered. "No names, no pack drill", as they used to say, though I have no idea what a pack drill is.

This is the risk folks take when they do FtF sales; fortunately, it seems that Hoss Fly is not under suspicion of a crime, but under other circumstances, he could find himself in deep trouble. It costs more to go through a dealer, but there is solid proof in the dealer's records and/or police records that there was a transfer and the seller's name is out of the picture.

Jim
 
I don't know the circumstances of Hoss Fly's original sale, but the whole idea of a face-to-face transfer is often to avoid any kind of paper trail, with no questions asked and none answered. "No names, no pack drill", as they used to say, though I have no idea what a pack drill is.
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http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/257300.html

No names, no pack-drill

Meaning

Say nothing and avoid repercussions.

Origin

Pack-drill was a punishment given to soldiers in the British Army, requiring them to undertake drill (exercise) in full uniform and carrying a heavy pack.

'No names, no pack-drill' is used to indicate that the names of those who have committed a misdemeanor will not be mentioned in order to spare them punishment.

The 'pack-drill' punishment is known from at least 1845, when it was referred to in William Maxwell's Hints to a soldier on service:

"A full guard house, dozens at pack-drill."

The 'no names, no pack-drill' mantra is first recorded in a memoir of the Indian Treaty negotiations, which took place between the British and Native Americans in Canada in the late 1860s. This piece from the Manitoba Daily Free Press lists the phrase as an 'old saw' (i.e. a traditional, homespun proverb) in July 1874:

[Notes taken] At the time of the Indian Treaty of 1873.
No NAMES — No PACK DRILL. — Old saw.
 
I'll bet the LE agency that traced the gun to it's first retail sale really appreciates your dealer calling to give you a heads up... just in case you really were the guilty party and wanted to run! :cool:

Firearms traces happen alot, but very few folks ever hear about it. In a state where transactions between citizens is not regulated (like Texas), they don't bother tracing it past the first dealer, because they know the likelihood of it having been sold/traded in the intervening years are quite good.
 
If I BUY through an FFL dealer, and there's a paper trail, then I sell it through a dealer. If I buy a gun FTF or similar where there's no paper trail, then I have no problem selling it FTF to someone else. Technically, I have no problem selling to anyone. It's not my responsibility for the person who buys it from me to be responsible. And of course, there's a million people that will say that these such sales are part of the problem. Personally, the problem is we need the death penalty for any type of crime related death caused with a gun or knife. And mandatory sentencing for all other crimes. Then again, they should outlaw all Chevy, Chrysler and Ford cars. More people have died from those than from guns.
 
I sold a Star 9mm to a co-worker in the mid-90's.

He ended up selling it to someone else and so on and so forth.

A few years ago, a local militia got busted and two days later an ABI agent came to visit me. I was the first owner of the Star, so like 9X19 said, it was traced to me.

They only asked the name of the person I sold it to, then asked him who he sold it to...

Last I heard of the whole deal.
 
No more ftf gun sales/trades
Sold or traded sum handgun back in '04 here in Texas that just showed up----
AS A MURDER WEAPON
My dealer called today to let me know it was recovered & still in my name

From this moment on NO deals dun less thru a FFL - DAM the FTF stuff
Nuthin that shoots leaves my hands without bein transfered to nuther name
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Maybe we should analyze the order in which things happen, here. In Texas, FFL sales are NOT reported to the state. The police must start the trace of the handgun at the top and work their way down. They will take the serial number of the gun, and inquire of the manufacturer which dealer they originally shipped the gun to. Then they will go to that dealer and ask to see the 4473 form for that gun. Hoss Fly's name is on the form.

That's where their search HAS to go next, now, is to Hoss Fly. Reason is, if Hoss Fly takes that gun and transfers it through an FFL - there will be no record of that transfer that the police can search for based upon the serial number of the gun except for that dealers 4473 and bound book. The police must next go to Hoss Fly and ask Hoss Fly what he did with the gun in order to find out which dealer, if any, he transferred the gun to.

Now Hoss Fly can either answer, "I transferred the gun to XYZ FFL" or Hoss Fly can answer, "I sold the gun to a person whom I had no reason to believe was not a Texas resident nor any reason to believe was a prohibited person." Either answer is completely sufficient, unless there is credible evidence that Hoss Fly knowingly sold the gun out of state or to a prohibited person, the situation does not change for Hoss Fly, whether or not he transfers his gun through an FFL.

So, is the answer to the situation to require FFLs to register their sales with the state, like in Washington state, so the police can track the sales strictly by the serial number of the gun and work from the last sale backwards instead of tracing the gun from the first sale forwards?
 
I don't know the circumstances of Hoss Fly's original sale, but the whole idea of a face-to-face transfer is often to avoid any kind of paper trail, with no questions asked and none answered. "No names, no pack drill", as they used to say, though I have no idea what a pack drill is.
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I haven't dug into the particular ATF regs covering FTF transfers, but don't they require proof of identification and a bill of sale for any firearm transfer? (Proof of ID from the buyer, and the BoS remains with the seller.)

I do know that many states require it, if it's not an ATF reg.
Utah used to (and may still) require a copy of the buyer's and seller's photo ID be kept with the bill of sale. This meant that people performing legal FTF transfers always needed to meet somewhere near a copy machine.
 
Utah used to (and may still) require a copy of the buyer's and seller's photo ID be kept with the bill of sale. This meant that people performing legal FTF transfers always needed to meet somewhere near a copy machine.
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I saw a FTF deal occur in the parking lot of a gun show (IIRC a no-no according to state law) recently. I parked right next to these guys in the middle of the deal. The seller asked to see the buyers drivers license. The buyer handed it over and the seller pulls out his Iphone and snaps a picture of the license.

Now that seller can upload that pic to a site like picasa where it can remain forever! I think the smart use of technology can make FTF sales much more safe for the seller in the long run.
 
So what's the problem? Did they have any other evidence to connect you to the crime other than the fact that you at one time owned the gun? I'm kinda confused. :confused: (Edited to add) Actually even if you had traded or sold the gun to a FFL, it would still trace back to you as the original purchaser.

Or does it just bother you that a gun you used to own got used in a crime? How many people have owned it since you sold it?
 
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Another thing not mentioned:

For all you know the guy who bought it already sold it, or been stolen. Alot of stolen guns are not reported.
 
FrankenMauser said:
Utah used to (and may still) require a copy of the buyer's and seller's photo ID be kept with the bill of sale. This meant that people performing legal FTF transfers always needed to meet somewhere near a copy machine.
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There is no current Utah law with such a requirement. There is no Utah requirement for a bill of sale.
 
For all you know the guy who bought it already sold it, or been stolen. Alot of stolen guns are not reported.
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Knew he sold it years ago- Neither of us thought anymore about it :confused:
If asked all i can do is say who i sold it to & let it go from there -
Dont feel responsable or anything- Just kind of mad & sad i guess :(
 
Even if you did the transfer through an FFL only the first retail sale is going to show up in a trace.

Manufacturer to wholesaler to FFL to retail buyer.

If the gun went to an FFL again it is not going to show up in the trace.
They do not contact every FFL and ask them to see if they ever sold a gun.
They follow the paper trail to the initial retail sale.

Why do you care anyway?

As long as you did not knowingly sell it to prohibited person and followed the law you did nothing wrong.
 
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