No Excuses for Poor Quality

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sanch

New member
I've read a couple posts of shooters who've experienced frustration with their rifles. There is no rational excuse for a less than perfect copy of a bid game rifle to leave a factory. We fork over our hard earned money for a big game rifle that can be relied upon to humanely and reliably kill big game.

I have an approx 45 year old Model 700 .270 Win. It's my first big game rifle. It'll shoot about .25 MOA. I'll try to post a photo of a group it printed.

The point is my Model 700 rolled out of Remington's factory in flawless condition. Keep in mind that at the time it was manufactured, there wasn't computer aided design and manufacture. Every rifle leaving Remington's factory was hand inspected for quality.

Computer aided design and manufacturing have removed human error from production. Hence, there should be no obvious flaws with a factory production rifle as two posters have experienced.

In the late 80's or early 90's I got serious about hunting Rocky Mountain elk. My only big game rifle was my Model 700 .270. I decided I needed an authentic elk rifle. Unknown to me at the time, my Model 700 .270 Win was an authentic Rocky Mountain elk rifle. A So Cal gun shop was blowing out Sako AV's. I picked up a brand new Sako Classic AV in 7MM Rem Mag, an authentic Rocky Mountain elk cartridge, or so I thought. I paid less for it than the then going price for Winchester and Remington rifles. I was lucky to have been in the right place at the right time. My Sako AV 7MM Rem Mag will shoot .25 MOA. It will one-shot kill the largest Rocky Mountain bull elk. I killed a 7 point that went well over 900 pounds. He's on my wall. The rub is I could've killed him just as dead with my Model 700 .270 Win. Nothing living remains in that condition without a functioning oxygenated blood pumping apparatus.

Because my Sako AV shot so darn perfectly, I picked up another Sako Classic in .270 Win, which I did not need. It'll shoot .25 MOA.

Big game hunters have ethical responsibility to humanely kill big game for which they're holding tags. That means they need accurate rifles that'll place bullets that'll destroy oxygenated blood pumping apparatuses.

I firmly believe that America craftsmen are the best in the world. However, profits drive company operations. What corporate administrators apparently fail to learn in business schools is there is no profit margin in BK business.

The way I see it, digital technology has removed human error from the design and manufacturing processes. A big game rifle should leave its factory in flawless condition and shoot MOA. There are no excuses for inferior rifles.

It pains me to write that if I were in the market for another big game rifle (thankfully, I'm mot), I'd look to German, Austrian, and Finland rifle manufacturers. I want to be able to write that my first choice would be an American manufactured rifle.

If the photo of my target successfully attached, my first shot was hit the right margin of the orange dot. I adjusted my Leupold 2.5x8 scope and printed the group I hope you can see. I aimed dead center at the bottom margin of the orange dot. That group was printed by a factory produced Model 700 that was about 40 years old when it printed that group. There is no justifiable reason for any rifle to leave a factory in other than flawless condition and capable of MOA accuracy.

BTW, a wise So Cal game warden gave me sage advice after he saw a tiny group my Sako 7MM Rem Mag printed: never sell a shooter rifle.

That's the way I see it. I know that we all have varying vision.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1794.JPG
    IMG_1794.JPG
    704 KB · Views: 164
Last edited:
People want something for nothing, and most companies cater to what their customers want. I have no problem with value rifles, as long as they shoot, but if they don't shoot what is the point?
 
Nice group Sanch! That AIN'T all rifle, obviously you have a good eyeball.
I have the same setup, early 80's Remington 700 in .270, with a Nikon Buckmaster... I can get 1" to 1/2" groups, but I'm sure a better shot could easily get 1/4". Sweet rifles indeed!
 
Hi Shadow9MM,

I completely agree with you. If a purchaser knowingly buys an inferior quality rifle, he'll get what he pays for. After he figures out inaccurate rifles have no value, he'll regret going inferior. The rub is if he sinks a fortune to make it a shooter, he could have bought a shooter rifle to begin with.
 
Hi Shurshot,

Thanks. My incredible Model 700 .270 Win that's about 45 years old will print groups like that all day long.

At one time Remington had a stellar reputation for producing incredibly accurate rifles.

That rifle will one-shot drop Rocky Mountain mule deer in their tracks.

Do you hand load? The best I could print with factory ammo was about MOA. After I began loading my hunting ammo, I was amazed at how remarkable my groups shrank.

I'd bet that if I fired my hand loads out of your fire, it would print groups like my Model 700.
 
I've got an old Remington 721 30-06, built in 1948, which is easily the best shooting 30-06 I've ever owned. My basic hunting load uses a common 150 grain Hornady Interlock/H4895 in mixed commercial brass for 2975 fps from its 24" barrel. I trim each time and trickle-up charges. That's it... this is a hunting load.

Three shots at 196 yards (that’s where the shade was) including an adjustment, 1 ¾”.

http://www.thesixgunjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/20200715_172105.jpg
 
No, I don't handload rifle rounds, I should start though once I retire. I'll bet you are correct! These 700's are very slick. Just got a nice 7 pointer opening day with mine. Would post a picture, but my phone or the site won't allow it.

721, I have one as well, a late 40's vintage, in .270, was my Grandfather's. Wears a fixed 4X Weaver. Spot on at 100 yards. ;)
 
Sarge: I have Remington 721 , 270 from 1958. It is a good shooter as well. I like 130 gr boat tail for my shooting.
 
They made as many or more lemons back in the day as today. Remington is out of business today mainly because they used defective triggers on every bolt gun manufactured between 1946 and 2006. Bolt handles that fall off and broken extractors have plagued the design from the beginning.

Paying out millions of dollars each to settle hundreds of lawsuits hurts the bottom line and doesn't leave any money for R&D to develop new products and forces lower quality.

Accuracy isn't the only measure of quality, but I've seen more truly accurate rifles made in the last 10-15 years than prior to the 2000's. It is true that more attention to quality finishing was the rule years ago. But I retired my 1974 production Remington years ago. There are better options today.
 
Poor quality is the rule now days when it comes to guns no mater the mfg. I am more surprised if I get a good gun rather than a bad one no matter if it's S&W, Ruger, Kimber, Browning, no matter.
 
Hi pete2,

Your post was a sad commentary about extraneous influences upon otherwise superb American craftsmanship.
 
Hi jmr40,

I've hunted with a lot of guys who used the Model 700. I've never heard of a single complaint.

Remington's trigger didn't cause problems. Negligent discharges caused problems. What part of, "Keep your finger off on your gun's trigger until you're sure of your target and what lies beyond," caused shooters difficulty?
 
accuracy

I still have and shoot my first centerfire rifle, Remington 600 in .222 Remington.

After all these years it can hit thumb tacks at 100yds.

They don't make 'em like they used to. Pity.
 
Remington is out of business today mainly because they used defective triggers on every bolt gun manufactured between 1946 and 2006

You mean it wasn't Remington's corporate owners taking out mega millions in loans and saddling them with huge corporate debt (while pocketing the money for themselves) and then leaving Remington hung out to dry??

Imagine that...:rolleyes:
 
I have 700s in 243, 280, 7mmRM, 308, and 338-06. Put Magpul Hunters on 243 and 308, Bell & Carlson on 280, and 7mmRM, and Boyds Laminate on 338-06. All shoot 1/2, with the exception of the 243, which places .3". Only other change was a Timney Hunter on all. I bought a Ruger American Predator in 6.5 Grendel to experiment with an inexpensive rifle. Shot my proven .2" loads into 1 inch with factory stock. Put it in a Boyd's Pillar Bedded Spike Camp and loads came back down. With the exception of the Savage Accustock, I'd replace any of the factory plastics on the bargain rifles.
 
Now I've never ran a bore scope down any of my rifles barrels and I'm not sure if I want to now... Anyway when I bought my '09 Argentine Mauser it came with a FN conversion .308 Win barrel. Just eyeballing it, it looks like a mirror all the way down. The friend I got the rifle from said that it was a cheap barrel that he bought from an ad in Shotgun News.

Right now I'm in the middle of putting a new stock on that rifle but it was always a very good shooting gun...

Tony
 
The point is my Model 700 rolled out of Remington's factory in flawless condition.

No, it did not. It rolled out of the factory with a Walker trigger system that has cost Remington 10s, if not hundreds of millions in lost lawsuits and recalls.

I firmly believe that America craftsmen are the best in the world. However, profits drive company operations. What corporate administrators apparently fail to learn in business schools is there is no profit margin in BK business.

Which is why your gun has the Walker trigger system...because Remington, knowing of the fault, danger, and risk, opted NOT to spend a paultry amount of money to fix it at the onset (5.5 cents per unit).

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426277&highlight=remington+trigger+lawsuit
 
Sanch, It really is sad to think the guns built 50-75 years ago are better than what they are selling to us today. We have better materials, better machinery and tooling, guns today should be a lot better than they are. There should not be a 1% failure rate and it runs about 30% based on the one I've bought over the last 20 years or so. Getting worse and worse. I mean of the last 6 new S&W revolvers I've purchased only 2 are correct and one of the 2 spits at me once in a while, gonna have to do the forcing cone on it.
 
Double Naught,

I'm good with your opinion. It seems to be the product of your personal disliking of Remington rifles.

I've owned my Model 700 .270 Win for about 45 years. For about 20 years, it was my only big game rifle. It'll out-shoot custom rifles costing thousands more. I've never had a single issue with it. I've hunted with a whole lot of guys who had Model 700s. I've never, ever knew of one of them experiencing a single problem with their Model 700s.

A friend with a Weatherby Mark V and another with 2 Winchester Super Grades couldn't come close to accuracy of my Model 700.

The "Walker Trigger" problem was an illusion caused by lawyers who were motivated to legally steal money they did not earn.

This is just a guess: every "problem" imputed to the Walker Trigger was really a shooter negligence problem. There is no such thing as an accidental shooting with a hunting rifle. No hunting rifle should ever be pointed at a human being. Period.
 
Good Morning pete2,

I completely agree.

I'm far from rich. I will avoid unnecessary frustration almost as much as I'll go far out of my way to avoid anything to do with Osama bin Biden, Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi, AOC, etc. Hence, I'd be inclined to pay a premium for a rifle that will perform as advertised or better w/o causing me frustration.

Thankfully, I don't need another big game rifle. But if I were to be in the market for a bolt action rifle, I'd look to Sako, or either German or Austrian quality. However, I've recently became aware that Springfield Armory has introduce an excellent bolt action rifle that has has received highest praise. It has a MSRP of about $2200. I'd give it serious consideration if it had a classic (American) stock.

The Sako 85 comes with a 5-shot MOA guarantee. I've held one. It certainly appeared to be all quality. Its downside was its weight. It felt like 10 pounds w/o a scope and sling.

A few years ago, I picked up a Sauer 100 .222 Rem. It was the only brand I could find chambered for .222 Rem. From what I understand, Sauer has DC'd the .222 Rem, so I was lucky to find one. Stock, it'll shoot .5 MOA. I'd tried only one hand load. I'm sure that with hand load experimentation, I could shrink group size. For an entry level rifle, the Sauer 100 is of incredible quality. My only other option was an Anschutz .222 Rem. From memory alone, it listed at $2500. At that price, no vendor had one in inventory. Some vendors were adding names to waiting lists. Hence, I grabbed what I was able to get. I have no complaints with my Sauer 100, especially considering it cost me about $700.

Americans are the best craftsmen in the world. I'm sure that Germans would disagree. Pete, you're 100% right. We should be able to buy American with knowledge that we're buying the best.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top