No Blood Trail, Rifle Not Powerful Enough

as much as I dislike posting in zombie threads.

the resurrection artist needs to understand that there is a huge difference in the velocity of a standard length 308 or 30-06 and a 308 coming from a 16 inch barrel, especially if the powder is of a slower burn rate. I am not a fan of remington. I have had such terrible results with their hunting ammo I have completely sworn off them for that application. what I'm thinking is the case, here, is that the corelokts are behaving like varmint loads, instantly expanding and fragmenting and not holding enough weight to get proper penetration. one poster in this thread said something along the lines of "more than enough for tiny TX deer". well that right there should be an indicator that something is wrong if relatively close range shots on small deer still can't muster the oomph for a pass through wound.

the problem is likely a mixture of poor bullet construction and the short barrel hampering velocity. if I were going to handload for it, and I love to work up new loads. I would likely load up a strong load using a total copper bullet like a nosler Etip or barnes TTSX, upping the weight is not really necessary for "tiny tx whitetails". in order to negate the loss of velocity from the short barrel I would suggest using one of the faster burning powders like IMR3031. according to hodgdon data, a 150gr nosler Etip can be pushed 2850 FPS from a 24 inch barrel, likely this would drop to the 2600FPS range by the shorter barrel but that still leaves a decently effective cartridge. the gilded metal bullet will not explode on contact with a front quarter and will likely pass through.


however with all of this said. very few of my animals I've taken were pass through shots. pass through is not necessary to kill animals and unless it has guts dragging out of the exit wound, it's not going to leave a blood trail immediately on the spot, it has to pump blood out of the wound and that takes several seconds before it begins to drip. if a person has the devasting effects on entrance that the OP claims, that is the equivalent of a well designed bullet's exit wound and would likely have left similar trails. the fact that the animal died before it bled out enough to leave a trail is pointless. if you can't track that short of distance without a blood trail, then you probably aren't a very good tracker to begin with.
 
I'll say it again.Regarding penetration,velocity is over rated.

We are talking less than 200 yds in this thread.

His barrel length /velocity is not the issue.

We need enough velocity to cause the bullet to perform as designed.Thats someplace in the vicinity of 2000 fps for most common jacketed rifle hunting bullets.

It can be less if the bullet is designed for less.

With exactly the same cartridges out of the same box from the initial post.shooting the same hog in exactly the same place,the 16 or 18 in bbl likely got more,not less penetration than a higher velocity 26 in bbl would have .

A 30-30 may well have given as much penetration.

Velocity is useful,but before scopes and extended ranges,people were shooting holes through game with much lower velocity.

I have no Africa experience or expertise,but seems I heard 2200 to 2400 fps is a preferred velocity range for shooting big dangerous critters because of dependable bullet performance (penetration) in that zone.

From the 6.5 x55 heavy bullet loads,7x57 175 gr loads,30-40 200 gr loads,.303 Brit,bigger game than deer and hogs have been harvested for 100 yrs.

The velocity range of our OP's rifle will not challenge a good cup and core flat base bullet.Maybe 150 gr for his shot is a bit light,but most folks use those on ribs and lungs,not shoulders.

Myself,I don't know that I'd go to a harder light bullet,but a generic 180 flat base from Sierra,Speer,Hornady,Nosler,etc at about 2500 fps,out to 200 yds,will get business done.
 
Yep, as mentioned, a bigger gun / bullet / chambering certainly won't HURT, and is simply one of two ways to go about solving the problem. (in your case, going with a bigger gun might mean, say, a .30-'06 with a 220 grainer, or .338'-06 with 250 grainer - in nonpremium bullet offerings).

But since the cartridge itself is already a high-pressure, high-vel, "full-powered" modern cartridge, the OTHER way to go about it (withOUT increasing recoil), is to focus on that key key ingredient of bullet construction.

You need a premium bullet with the same rifle- not a "standard cup and core", or a "ballistic tip" bullet (you were using a standard cup and core....even though it's called a "core-lokt" this is misleading; it's not an actual premium bullet).

Get something the penetrates better - a "premium" bullet - one of these types:

1. Monolithic / gilding metal: Barnes TSX, Barnes TTSX, Hornady GMX, Nosler E-Tip,
or
2. Partitioned bullet: Nosler Partition, Swift A-frame
or
3. Bonded bullet: Nosler Accubond, Hornady Interbond, Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw**, others??

**which bullet is made by whom?

Oh, and *some* ballistic tips, like the Accubond and TTSX, are indeed premium bonded bullets, but bullets just labeled "Ballistic tip" or "Silvertip" are NOT bonded bullets.

I'm sure I missed a bunch of premium bullets, such as from Speer, Scirroco, Sierra, and others.

Also, finally, use a heavier bullet. Heavier bullets in the same caliber penetrate much better than lighter ones because not only do they have a higher sectional density (the most important factor after bullet construction and sheer mass, they are also going slower, which actually gives more penetration "down to a point" on the velocity scale (this is due to less rapid expansion).

EDIT: Oops, ok, it's old... but there's my .02 nevetheless.
 
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OMG I can't handle it, even thought the original thread is old the trivial hogwash that has been, and is being spewed is totally ridiculous.

First off the OP is using the same length barrel I have on my Ruger Compact, and using the same Remington ammo I not only was buying bulk to hunt deer and hogs with, but also the same bullets I am handloading now to do so with. I can assure everyone here it isn't the bullets, they work just fine on deer and hogs weighing up to and over 400#. Been there done it out to 400yds with that same little Ruger Compact using those same factory Remington bullets. I get just over 2600fps out of the factory loads and believe me THEY DO NOT BLOW UP ON IMPACT.

That said though, I know where to shoot them, I also know the load and how it shoots in my little short rifle. It isn't the bullets trust me, and if you need pictures feel free to browse the link below.

my pic's

You will see plenty of critters taken with that short little Ruger using the Remington 150g CL's. I even used a plain jane ol cup and core on the cow elk pictured in there as well. Guess what, didn't go 10' from impact to dirt nap.

Really.... blowing up on impact, needing premium bullets, for hogs and whitetail deer????? utterly ridiculous.....

As for the '06, sorry to burst your bubbles but the same thing with it as well. Load the factory ammo, slip into the woods, find the critter, aim, shoot, and go clean said critter. No fuss, no muss, or exotic premium bullets needed....

Sheesh we're not talking about something like a Cape Buffalo...just someone who need to learn the sought after game's anatomy and practice shooting alot....
 
It's not ridiculous, *IFF* your goal is to always have an exit hole, from any angle.... just depends on what you want, and your theory of the hunt, so to speak. Exit holes do help with tracking. But having said that, I agree with the general premise that premium bullets aren't needed for these species, to ethically harvest them.
 
My objective is ultimately to eat the deer I shoot. My objective has rarely been to get an exit hole, though an exit hole can be halpful. For shooting whitetail, any old cup and core bullet will do just fine. You don't need 'monolithic', bonded, or any other type high dollar bullet. Somehow, in the last decade or so, somebody convinced hunters that their cheap little basic bullet wasn't enough. But it is enough, and you don't need a BC of .600 to get the job done. Of course if folks want a high dollar bullet, that's fine.
 
the resurrection artist needs to understand that there is a huge difference in the velocity of a standard length 308 or 30-06 and a 308 coming from a 16 inch barrel, especially if the powder is of a slower burn rate. I am not a fan of remington. I have had such terrible results with their hunting ammo I have completely sworn off them for that application.
Click to expand...

I shot Remington 140's in 7-08 through my Ruger Frontier ..... the chrono told me I had a velocity of 2660 ...... I sereiously doubt that neither the deer nor the shooter could notice anything resembling a "huge difference in the velocity" at the ranges the OP was talking about (under 200 yards) ..... the140ish f/sec difference for the two is less than an inch of trajectory and less than 200 ft/lbs of energy at 200 .....

If we move the range out to 400, then that velocity loss becomes significant .... but at 200? Not.

If you need 400 yard performance, then a carbine sized gun is not the answer ....... nor are flatbased factory loads......


The OP's problem was that he wanted an exit wound, and wasn't getting it ...... (wasn't happy with very near to DRT critters ......) a light for caliber cup and core bullet was not producing the results he wanted ......

The answer was, and is, pretty simple: heavier bullet, and/or one designed to hold together better- either bonded, dual core (like Partition or A-Frame), or a solid copper/guilding metal hollow point like the TSX or GMX ......

I surmise that a heavy for caliber bullet would work for him ...... it has been my experience that heavier bullets lose less velocity (though they have less to start with) in short barrels than lighter ones, all else being equal.....

My best results in my Frontier have been with heavier bullets and faster powders than the ones giving top velocities in the manuals ...... 150gr bullets and slightly reduced charges of IMR 4064 give good accuracy, low recoil, and less muzzle blast than full house factory loads, but still kill deer just fine out to as far as the kiddoes are capable of holding to .....
 
unfortunately, gilded metal and bonded bullet designs require high velocities to open up. nosler recommends at least 1800FPS for their accubond, partition, and Etip bullets to function properly. Speer recommended the same for their deep curl rifle bullets. unfortunately, real world tests have indicated to me, that this is also a low estimate, I have had Etips and partitions in various calibers fail to open more than minor mushrooming up to 2100FPS. for best performance, at least 2300FPS should be used, a velocity barely attainable from a 308 with 16 inch barrel when talking about a 180gr bullet.

considering this data I just stole from a different forum
150 gr HPBT Win 748 loaded to a chamber pressure of 56.4K PSI WARM load 45 gr NOT a starting load. I chose 748 as the powder as it is most like NATO powder.

26" = 2918 FPS MP= 6.6K PSI ––99.6 % powder burnt -2836 ft/lbs
24" = 2873 FPS MP= 7.4K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––2750 ft/lbs
22" = 2823 FPS MP= 8.2K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––2655 ft/lbs
20" = 2766 FPS MP= 9.2K PSI ––98.7 % powder burnt -2548 ft/lbs
18" = 2700 FPS MP= 10.5K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––2428 ft/lbs
16" = 2623 FPS MP= 12.0K PSI -97% powder burnt ––––2291 ft/lbs
14" = 2531 FPS MP= 14.0K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––2133 ft/lbs
12" = 2417 FPS MP= 16.7K PSI -94% powder burnt ––1946 ft/lbs
10" = 2273 FPS MP= 20.5K PSI ––––––––––––––––––––––––––1721 ft/lbs
8.0"= 2080 FPS MP= 26.0K PSI -87% powder burnt. -1441 ft/lbs
6.0"= 1800 FPS MP= 34.1K PSI -79.4% powder burnt -1080 ft lbs
Click to expand...
as you can see using w748 powder, which is on the lower end of average burn rate for the 308 cartridge loses nearly 450FPS from a standard 24" barrel to a 16 inch barrel. if a person wants to use gilded metal or bonded bullets effectively, they will still have to worry about velocity and still have to use a faster burn rate powder to make the most use of the short barrel. I stand by my post which you quoted, but took out of context. you ignored the point I made which corresponds with your post about bullet selection being key, and fail to take into account the velocity requirements of well crafted bullets.
 
My Texas buddy knocks hogs "butt over teakettle" with an AR I made for him using 55 gr. FMJ Federal American Eagle, although not an expert he has counted almost 500 hogs taken by him from one of his properties. I cheated last month and used a AAC Handi Rifle in 300 Blackout with a puny 125 gr. Sierra TNT....my 350 pound boar (biggest I ever shot) was hit in the shoulder where I aimed and at the angle that took heart out. Small entry no exit no external blood but after running sixty yards he was a dead Texas hog. Shot placement is where it is at. I guess this old boar did not know a 300 Blackout/TNT would defeat his "shield".
 
TX Hunter, I suggest you use a 7Rum with a 140 TSX. It will expand, exit, leave everything in between the entrance and exit looking like a explosion, if need be leave a blood river.;)
I like mine so well I am building another just like it.
 
I've probably killed more hogs than most guys will see in the wild in their lifetime. Myths abide everywhere about the awesome power and specialty bullets needed to penetrate the "shields" on the boars or make holes that will bleed enough. The reality of the situation is it's all overblown and over thought.
I've killed them with everything from 44/40 to 45/70 and a whole lot of calibers in between and never lacked for power. If you just want a blood trail, gut shooting them is probably the answer....but if you want to kill them outright, just shoot them through the shoulder into the boiler room.
I normally use a .223 or a .308 these days..but only because of the optics I have mounted on those two particular rifles. Many other calibers I own would work just as good.
Just as IBMikey stated about the 300 blackout...put it where it should be and they go down. They are not mythological creatures..they are just pigs.
 
I've killed quite a few Whitetails with .243 and .270. The only one I ever lost was a gut shot doe. I hit a tree about half way between me and the deer. Some of the bullets passed thru some didn't. None ran over 50 yards. There is no reason the .308 shouldn't perform as well as a .243 or .270. SHOT PLACEMENT IS OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE. Bullets, 90 gr SP and 85 SP in the 243. 130 Hornady spire point, 130 Win Silvertip(old style) and 130 Nosler BT in the .270.
Broadside, lung shot. quartering shot, thru the center(heart/lung) if you do it right. The Silvertip and BT are pretty destructive and won't always shoot thru and thru but usually a quartering shot drops a deer in his tracks.
SHOT PLACEMENT.
 
considering this data I just stole from a different forum
Click to expand...

....

A borrowed anecdote holds little credibility with me against things I've seen with my own eyes ..... measured with my own gun and chrony .....

I'm not saying your stolen data is just not so- it just does not jive with my own experiences with rifle powders on the quicker end of the spectrum in a 308 sized case and a 16" barrel.


As for the GMX/TSX type bullets needing 1800+ f/sec to open ...... a TSX load of comparable velocity to my own 7-08 reduced recoil load still exceeds that speed past 200 yards ..... which is as far as the OP was going to shoot anyhow...... moot point.
 
7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders.
 
I have witnessed a large bison bull taken with a 16 in bbl 308 from an FN FAL.A Veteran who had just returned from deployment,he double tapped the bull with 165 gr Barnes bullets.
Another bull was taken with a Sharps 45-70,and another with a 416 Rem mag.

All three animals were well hit.The 308 went down quickly from the double tap.

The 45-70 was a good hit,but he animal was still standing.After a few seconds,a second round was sent.Down.i
A 416 Rem has plenty of power.Bull was well hit,down.Other bulls coaxed him to his feet,using their horns,A few staggered steps,another round sent.Incredible impact.Perfect placement.He still stood 5 seconds or so before caving.
Bison are just big enough it takes them a bit to succumb.

The 16 in bbl 308 killed just as dead and just as fast as the 416.

By what stretch of the imagination does a hog or deer take more killng than a bison bull?

Is a 30-30 inadequate to kill a hog at the same ranges the OP discussed?

Would a 14 in bbl 308 or 35 Rem Contender kill a hog at 100 yds?

Will a 303 British reliably kill a moose?I think our Canadian friends can advise us.

How about a Krag? 300 Savage?

Yes!!Cutting the bbl lowers velocity.

For 150 yd hunting,2400 fps is just fine.

Some folks get good results with 7.62x39.

I do not believe in "stunt hunting" with marginal to inadequate cartridges.Use enough gun.But too many folks think more gun is the answer when other factors are the problem.

Ross Seifred went to Africa and took a cape buffalo with a hot loaded RugerBisley in 45 colt
 
I will stick with my Corlokts in my medium cartridges. I had a bad experience with velocity and bullet type years back. I hit the deer through the lungs and was lucky and got another shot off through the shoulder. The first shot was close up and the bullet went through like I poked a pencil through the deer. When I shoot a deer in a soft spot, I want that bullet to open up. Just last year I stopped to talk to a young guy at a power line that had just shot a big doe with a 25-06. He was waiting for his father to come down to track it in the brush. He was absolutely sure he hit it in the lungs and it was dead. I looked where he said he shot it at and it probably was not 60 yards. I saw him later that day and they never got the deer. I would agree that since the high velocity rifle craze started, it would be a good idea to match your bullets to the cartridge. Where I hunt, 200 yards is a long shot. I stick with medium powered cartridges. Deer are not that tough and I am not afraid of them, although I know quite a few guys that sit in trees to hunt deer.
 
7mm-08 is not a 308 and we appear to be arguing the same point from opposite ends of the table. you are citing 7mm08 data using fast powders. I cited 308 with a relatively slow powder. I am advocating fast powders to maximize the effectiveness of the 16 inch barrel because of the poor performance of slow powders.
Click to expand...

The WIN748 in your quoted data is faster* than the IMR4064 of my load .... I have a hard time believing a faster powder loses twice as much velocity as mine did ..... and I'm using a reduced load ..... some barrels are faster than others, and some are slower ..... some like some bullets, and choke on others ....



*how much faster, I don't know, but there are 8 powders between them on my burn chart .... with H335, RL12, and the 4895's (powders I am familiar with ..... ) listed as slower than the 748.
 
negative ghostrider. according to Hodgdon, 748 is at the absolute slowest of the powders recommended for loading in 308. IMR3031 on the other hand is faster than w748, varget, imr4064, and h4895, all of which are about the most common powders used to load 308 or it's derivative cartridges.

IMR3031 is ranked 79th in terms of fastest powder burn out of 146 listed powders.
IMR4064 is ranked 94th.
W748 is ranked 102nd.

are you sure you're not thinking of winchester 296? ranked 64th?
 
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