Night Vision or Thermal for Defense?
- Thread starter Murby
- Start date
JeepHammer
Moderator
I'm not even going to get I to the question of 'Tatics/Tactical', everyone has a different definition...
From someone that has been military field deployed with both,
Light amplification pros/cons,
Battery life is a pro, batteries last a LOT longer.
Cost is a pro, an acceptable unit being 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of an acceptable thermal unit.
Utility is a pro, easily switches from firearm to hand held or headgear mounts.
Light Amplification can be greatly extended for range (dirt cheap too!) Without having to use a projected light source from the optic itself.
Cons include range, you need a projected light source on overcast nights or in dark places like caves or bunkers. (Illuminators)
The light source lights YOU up for anyone that also has light amplification, and some thermals will pick up even LED illuminators.
Most are damaged by bright flashes or bright lights, even with the sun shield in place. While the instructions say it's light protected, the extra bright light will damage the CCD and you WILL get 'Black' (dead) spots in the optic. (Muzzle flash & lasers included).
This isn't an issue for military troops that get replacements for free, but when you are throwing out your own bucks, its a consideration...
-----
Cons on thermal, Lower end thermals will loose efficiency on very hot days (or when ground temp is close to body temp)
Extreme cold and even the military units blacked out entirely, that may be solved by now, that was some years back...
Thermals are defeated entirely by something as simple as a sleeping pad or yoga mat (insulation that masks body heat)
Thermals can be defeated by the 99 cent 'Space Blankets'.
Thermals eat batteries, unless a LOT has changed in the last 5 years, you will be replacing batteries about 8 to 1.
There is no way to extend the range of a thermal other than simply buying a better unit.
Pro, Really high end thermals will see a limited ways through fog (water droplets will eventually mask the thermal signature) and they will see through smoke.
Thermals will make targets jump out from background, but you can become complacent and miss masked signatures with this level of contrast.
As mentioned before, with a really high end thermals, you can see heat from hand, foot or butt prints for a short while.
Since you are seeing heat signature, it's VERY easy to identify a 'Target' from the random bird, opossum or house cat.
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Con on both, no depth perception or range estimations!
You don't know if the 'Dip' in front of you is 6 inches or 6 feet.
Unless it's a dedicated weapons sight, neither will have reticle or any scale for range estimation.
------------
As mentioned before, motion detectors are cheap & handy.
Infrared LEDs on a motion detector lights up the area around it, GREATLY increasing the range of light amplification units, and also will alert you 'Something' is moving, without tipping off the 'Something'.
Dusk to Dawn (garden path) lights are dirt cheap, and when visible light LEDs are replaced with infrared, are completely invisible to anyone without night vision.
Dusk to Dawn lights are dirt cheap, come with solar chargers, battery packs, mounting stakes and only require a visible light to infrared LED change.
(I use them varmint hunting a bunch, outer perimeter motion detector to let me know something is coming, inner shooting field full time 'On' to allow for positive identification. Don't want to mistake the dog for a coyote or hog)
From someone that has been military field deployed with both,
Light amplification pros/cons,
Battery life is a pro, batteries last a LOT longer.
Cost is a pro, an acceptable unit being 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of an acceptable thermal unit.
Utility is a pro, easily switches from firearm to hand held or headgear mounts.
Light Amplification can be greatly extended for range (dirt cheap too!) Without having to use a projected light source from the optic itself.
Cons include range, you need a projected light source on overcast nights or in dark places like caves or bunkers. (Illuminators)
The light source lights YOU up for anyone that also has light amplification, and some thermals will pick up even LED illuminators.
Most are damaged by bright flashes or bright lights, even with the sun shield in place. While the instructions say it's light protected, the extra bright light will damage the CCD and you WILL get 'Black' (dead) spots in the optic. (Muzzle flash & lasers included).
This isn't an issue for military troops that get replacements for free, but when you are throwing out your own bucks, its a consideration...
-----
Cons on thermal, Lower end thermals will loose efficiency on very hot days (or when ground temp is close to body temp)
Extreme cold and even the military units blacked out entirely, that may be solved by now, that was some years back...
Thermals are defeated entirely by something as simple as a sleeping pad or yoga mat (insulation that masks body heat)
Thermals can be defeated by the 99 cent 'Space Blankets'.
Thermals eat batteries, unless a LOT has changed in the last 5 years, you will be replacing batteries about 8 to 1.
There is no way to extend the range of a thermal other than simply buying a better unit.
Pro, Really high end thermals will see a limited ways through fog (water droplets will eventually mask the thermal signature) and they will see through smoke.
Thermals will make targets jump out from background, but you can become complacent and miss masked signatures with this level of contrast.
As mentioned before, with a really high end thermals, you can see heat from hand, foot or butt prints for a short while.
Since you are seeing heat signature, it's VERY easy to identify a 'Target' from the random bird, opossum or house cat.
-----------
Con on both, no depth perception or range estimations!
You don't know if the 'Dip' in front of you is 6 inches or 6 feet.
Unless it's a dedicated weapons sight, neither will have reticle or any scale for range estimation.
------------
As mentioned before, motion detectors are cheap & handy.
Infrared LEDs on a motion detector lights up the area around it, GREATLY increasing the range of light amplification units, and also will alert you 'Something' is moving, without tipping off the 'Something'.
Dusk to Dawn (garden path) lights are dirt cheap, and when visible light LEDs are replaced with infrared, are completely invisible to anyone without night vision.
Dusk to Dawn lights are dirt cheap, come with solar chargers, battery packs, mounting stakes and only require a visible light to infrared LED change.
(I use them varmint hunting a bunch, outer perimeter motion detector to let me know something is coming, inner shooting field full time 'On' to allow for positive identification. Don't want to mistake the dog for a coyote or hog)
JeepHammer
Moderator
$4,000 ?
Our thermal weapons sights cost $15,000, a really top end civilian, entry level military grade weapons sight is about $12,000 now.
You can pick up 'Consumer' grade hand held/head gear mounted light amplification that's pretty good for around $250-$450 (see boating applications so they are water proof),
While civilian consumer grade light amplification weapons sights are still $750-$1,000 up to several thousand for military grade.
1st & 2nd generation will give you eye cancer and/or destroy the retina from radiation. (See anything from Russia, Starlight Gen 1 & Gen 2).
Older Gen 1 & Gen 2 usually used proprietary batteries and ate batteries like crazy, while Gen 3 & 4 worked on MUCH less power (and threw off much less radiation) so the batteries lasted longer.
Just try and find a 72 or 96 volt battery for some of the imported Gen 1 units now...
Gen 3 often works on fairly common 3 volt (123) or 9 volt batteries & some Gen 4s operate off common AA batteries.
I won't have the 'Button' cell versions anymore, not when AA, 9 volt or 123 battery versions are available.
Anything under about 25,000X magnification (of light) and a young, well adjusted eyeball can do almost as well,
Older eyes need to start looking into 35,000X light magnification and up.
Dedicated weapons sights often have magnification, and military grade weapons sights have indicators letting you know when laser or infrared (non-visible) light is directed your way.
That's to let you know the bad guys are hunting in your area with night vision... Time to turn off anything that radiates, keep you thermal signature, cover & concealment up so they don't find you...
Our thermal weapons sights cost $15,000, a really top end civilian, entry level military grade weapons sight is about $12,000 now.
You can pick up 'Consumer' grade hand held/head gear mounted light amplification that's pretty good for around $250-$450 (see boating applications so they are water proof),
While civilian consumer grade light amplification weapons sights are still $750-$1,000 up to several thousand for military grade.
1st & 2nd generation will give you eye cancer and/or destroy the retina from radiation. (See anything from Russia, Starlight Gen 1 & Gen 2).
Older Gen 1 & Gen 2 usually used proprietary batteries and ate batteries like crazy, while Gen 3 & 4 worked on MUCH less power (and threw off much less radiation) so the batteries lasted longer.
Just try and find a 72 or 96 volt battery for some of the imported Gen 1 units now...
Gen 3 often works on fairly common 3 volt (123) or 9 volt batteries & some Gen 4s operate off common AA batteries.
I won't have the 'Button' cell versions anymore, not when AA, 9 volt or 123 battery versions are available.
Anything under about 25,000X magnification (of light) and a young, well adjusted eyeball can do almost as well,
Older eyes need to start looking into 35,000X light magnification and up.
Dedicated weapons sights often have magnification, and military grade weapons sights have indicators letting you know when laser or infrared (non-visible) light is directed your way.
That's to let you know the bad guys are hunting in your area with night vision... Time to turn off anything that radiates, keep you thermal signature, cover & concealment up so they don't find you...
Last edited:
Onward Allusion
New member
Like someone else said, if you can't see it in daylight, nightvision will not add value in the same scenario.
I guess what some here don't understand is that you don't necessary have to shoot someone 200 yards away. Sometimes it just good to know there isn't anyone out there, hence, the thermal route. Personally, I'd get a thermal monocular. Keep in mind, if you nail a prospective BG at 100 yards, there's going to be questions and paperwork even if your closest neighbor is a couple of miles away.
If it ever does get THAT bad, thermal ain't gonna do much good. Time for anti-personnel and all other kinds of nasty stuff.
I guess what some here don't understand is that you don't necessary have to shoot someone 200 yards away. Sometimes it just good to know there isn't anyone out there, hence, the thermal route. Personally, I'd get a thermal monocular. Keep in mind, if you nail a prospective BG at 100 yards, there's going to be questions and paperwork even if your closest neighbor is a couple of miles away.
If it ever does get THAT bad, thermal ain't gonna do much good. Time for anti-personnel and all other kinds of nasty stuff.
For security use, I would pay the money and get the FLIR unit - if I bought anything at all.
That said, I would also spend the additional money to engage an attorney well-versed in my state's self-defense laws to tell me when and under what circumstances I could legally use the thing.
What kind of "self-defense" scenario are you envisioning? In general, once you have reason to believe there is someone on your property, as soon as you pick up your gun (with thermal sight attached) and go out the door looking for the intruder, you become the aggressor.
A few states (most notably Texas) have laws allowing the use of deadly force to protect personal property, but unless you're defending a herd of cattle from being stolen after midnight even the Texas statute (regarded by many as most permissive) becomes so complex that you really need to hold the court hearing before you pull the trigger.
"Questions and paperwork"?
Intentionally pick up a rifle with a night-vision scope and go out onto your property with the intent of engaging an intruder - up to and including the possible application of deadly force (why else did you take the rifle?) - is answering an RSVP to a criminal trial, a civil lawsuit and a bankruptcy hearing.
Everyone I have known who actually pulled the trigger in a so-called self-defense situation (except me) has been ruined - criminally, financially, socially, and/or professionally - by it.
Onward Allusion
New member
^^^
Much too much reverence.
Much too much reverence.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Yeah, I remember when the Raytheon W1000 320 resolution 3x lunchbox thermal weapon sight was considered top end military gear and cost $35K. You can get the same performance today for $2800 with a Puslar Apex XQ50.
I don't know any top end "civilian" thermal gear that is significantly better at $12K as it is at $8k for the Trijicon IR Hunter MK3 4.5x 60mm and there is some very good thermal that costs a lot less.
I know the ground pounders we take hunting are impressed with the thermal gear we let them use given it was better than anything that they were using in Afghanistan on their rifles. No doubt the military has some really good stuff, but it isn't stuff the average Joe is packing.
I went with a PVS-14 and and IR laser and IR light on my rifle.
The advantage it gives in the dark is amazing. I try to train in passive mode so I don't use the IR light and only turn on the IR laser for a second or two.
I aso have a FLIR Scout PS240. I use it handheld to scan and detect. It's resolution is pretty coarse and the refresh rate is far too slow but for detection it is good and then the PVS14 would take over.
I mounted it on my 10/22 for fun and it shoots to the center of the view finder at 10 yards with this setup so if the target is close and it's very dark it'll do.
The advantage it gives in the dark is amazing. I try to train in passive mode so I don't use the IR light and only turn on the IR laser for a second or two.
I aso have a FLIR Scout PS240. I use it handheld to scan and detect. It's resolution is pretty coarse and the refresh rate is far too slow but for detection it is good and then the PVS14 would take over.
I mounted it on my 10/22 for fun and it shoots to the center of the view finder at 10 yards with this setup so if the target is close and it's very dark it'll do.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Which XQ50, the Pulsar Apex or Pulsar Trail? I am actually pro staff for a vendor and have used both. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.
And how do you know if that bright red silhouette is an actual threat or a neighbor's kid playing hide and seek at night? Or a natural resource officer going about his/her duties?
The scenario being described here does not sound like one that can be easily defended as self-defense.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I don't recall any particular law that says you must identify your target with 100% accuracy before a self defense action can be considered self defense. The only way he would be in trouble is if he hurts the wrong person. If he correctly determines the silhouette is a threat and uses the level of defensive action allowed by law for the level of threat, there won't be a problem. Should you be 100% confident the threat is a threat? Yes, but there isn't a legal stipulation for this.
With that said, he is wrong in saying no amount of outer camouflage or debris can hide the heat. Lots of things hide the heat. I see that all the time when hunting animals. I see it in my fellow hunters in winter time. The more layers they have on, the more their heat signature is hidden from thermal.
By describing the bright red silhouette, it sounds like he is describing a feature present on FLIR's "intsalert palette where the hottest portions of objects are designated as red. I find that it tends to create a more confusing image. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoOBVqjgxfw
2wheelwander
New member
Thread resurrection -
I recently bought this. For the money it is outstanding. No way to readily mount it to a rail, which I am not concerned about. Adjustable from white or black hot to colors. Takes pics or video, rechargable. It does not work though glass windows or doors, at least during the winter time. You must have an unobstructed view. Haven't tried it through screen yet.
Works past the advertised 100 yards, but the heat signature will be a blob, not detailed, still giving you a return of someone or something in the woods. Very happy for the money other than not coming with a protective case.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01APT3LF6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
EDIT * It was listed for $429 when I bought mine
I recently bought this. For the money it is outstanding. No way to readily mount it to a rail, which I am not concerned about. Adjustable from white or black hot to colors. Takes pics or video, rechargable. It does not work though glass windows or doors, at least during the winter time. You must have an unobstructed view. Haven't tried it through screen yet.
Works past the advertised 100 yards, but the heat signature will be a blob, not detailed, still giving you a return of someone or something in the woods. Very happy for the money other than not coming with a protective case.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01APT3LF6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
EDIT * It was listed for $429 when I bought mine
FireForged
New member
Thermal monocular? sure..
Helmet or weapon mounted Predator/Rambo set up? No
Helmet or weapon mounted Predator/Rambo set up? No
we hunt with atn nv and thermal gear , there nv stuff is nice cause u dont have to swap it off for daytime use , im currently using an x sight 4k pro 5-20x 54x with extended digital zoon) ( the vid), also a atn x sight hd 4-12x and an atn thor thermal/ atn mono , which u can only use at night time for the most part been really happy with both
this is the 4k at night with a sniper hog lights 66lrx illuminator on it the fence in the back of the vid is 700 yards away with the sniper hog lights coyote cannon we can see 1000-1100 yards
ill have to look threw my vids for the thermal stuff and the better nv vids i have
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeK-8lIvIkg
this is the 4k at night with a sniper hog lights 66lrx illuminator on it the fence in the back of the vid is 700 yards away with the sniper hog lights coyote cannon we can see 1000-1100 yards
ill have to look threw my vids for the thermal stuff and the better nv vids i have
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeK-8lIvIkg
Double Naught Spy
New member
ATN has the absolute worst customer service in the NV/Thermal industry. You can find posts all over that talk about problems people have. When it works, it works pretty darned good. When it doesn't, you have a boat anchor.