NICS and Race...I'm curious...

G

GalilARM

New member
Hey guys, I used to work behind the gun counter at Academy Sports when I was in high school. I'ts been several years ago, but something always caught my attention.

I sold on average about 2 handguns a day, and about twice as many long guns. I'm sure most if not all of you are familiar with the process of buying a gun (I.E. the background checks, NICS, etc etc) Anyway, it seemed that whenever a non-white person went to purchase a gun, they got the transaction "denied" or "delayed" by NICS. I worked there for two years, and I can say without a doubt that every single Black person who bought a gun was denied or delayed, except for one man who was a LEO. Again, I sold quite a few guns, and a good percentage were to minorities. It was the same for Hispanics. I sold at least 10 guns to Hispanic people, and not one of them went through without at least being "delayed" first. The only ones who seemed to avoid this were Asians. A few sales to Asians were denied, but it was mainly because of citizenship issues that were realized before the NICS call was ever even made.

Obviously, there were some whites who were delayed or denied as well, but far, far less frequently. All this goes to say, does anyone have any more insight as to why this might occur? Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing this as a complaint, but more as an inquiry to satisfy my own curiosity. Hopefully someone has some interesting insight!

GT
 
Weird.

I can't really speak on the race aspect of this, but the background-check folks are hard to predict. I get delayed about 1/3rd of the time for some reason. I have not even been written a traffic ticket in at least a decade (knock on wood). They instantly approved me for a M11/9, but delayed me for a .22 target rifle a few months later. I was instantly approved for an AR, but delayed on a Mosin-Nagant.

I have no idea how they make these decisions, but is has nothing to do with any criminal record in my case. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Does it have anything to do with how many firearms you have bought in a given time-frame?
 
I've never been delayed, and I'm in my mid-twenties, with one traffic ticket to my name. I've purchased everything from handguns to AK's, and always walk out with a new gun no problems. It just seemed strange that every black or hispanic person that EVER bought a gun from me got delayed or denied. I asked a few other people that worked there and it was the same story from each person. I didnt always work the day that the delayed person came back to finish the transaction, but it was my understanding that about half of them ended up being able to have the gun, the rest usually never came back, so we figured there was some sort of criminal history and they were just testing the system. Who knows..
 
could it be that maybe more white people are "on the books" as regular folk ?

like, they got credit scores, SS security number reported income, taxes filed every year, and bank accounts and drivers licenses... maybe even history of family citizenship, maybe they participated in the census ? maybe being so makes it easier to be instantly approved... hmm... just maybe
 
Since NICS checks criminal background I don't think that having bank accounts, mortgages, car notes, credit cards, etc affects the results.

It all has to do with crime statistics: black and hispanic men are most likely to have been convicted of an offense, whites may or may not have been, and Asians either a) never break the law or b) never get caught breaking the law. Assuming that this is true, then NICS should be most likely to delay black/hispanic customers, somewhat likely to delay white customers, never delay citizens of Asian descent, and delay some Asian RAs. If you don't mind asking nosy questions about your customer's personal lives I bet the anecdotal evidence will support the theory.

edit: I guess you can't ask them, you don't work there anymore.
 
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I have only been delayed once in the last 3 years. I am picking up a Glock 19 in VA today how much you want to bet I get delayed today. :confused:

PS I am Korean
 
Taking a wire in and trying to 'catch them in the act' wouldnt work, mainly because its not the retailer that makes the decision, its the people who run your background check. Besides, im not criticizing the practice, if anything it probably keeps our streets safer.
 
I would place a bet that it has to do with names. I don't know any white people that have the same last name that are not related but I know of at least 6 family's that are not related that share a last name with the other.

I bet if you could look up the numbers that there are less than half the last names per 1000 black people vs. most other races. I know that in the local phone book that Jackson has over four dozen listings and that about half have the same first name.

Also think of first names, I can name at least four black people that have the same first and last name but are not related in anyway.

NICS is going to have more trouble if you have a more common name. I know someone who worked a sport shop and he said that if someones name was (he listed off common last names) that it would give them a delay.
 
OK, I went a little too far when I said Asians never get delayed by NICS. I should really have said that the incidence is so rare as to be remarkable when it happens. Except in the case of resident aliens.

I have only been delayed once in the last 3 years. I am picking up a Glock 19 in VA today how much you want to bet I get delayed today.

PS I am Korean
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Some questions: Are you a U.S. citizen, or a resident alien? Also, is your family name Park, Kim, or Lee? I figure U.S. citizens get through NICS faster than resident aliens. And if your family name is a common Korean name NICS might be getting a false positive on you based on some other Korean's record, particularly if you refuse to write your SS# on the 4473.
I'm half-Korean, but my name is not a common Korean name, so NICS has never taken me more than 20 minutes, and I never write my SS# on the form.
 
It all has to do with crime statistics: black and hispanic men are most likely to have been convicted of an offense, whites may or may not have been, and Asians either a) never break the law or b) never get caught breaking the law.
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Wow, can we generalize just a little more?

I've had more NICS denials for white buyers than I've had denials for all other races combined. Now, that could just be because more white people buy guns in my neck of the woods than other races...or I could just extrapolate and make a blanket statement about whites and their "likelihood to have been convicted of an offense."

If I ran a gun shop in Atlanta, I'm pretty sure that most of my NICS denials would involve black customers, but I'm also pretty sure that most of my gun sales would be to black customers.
 
A lot of this will be based on name and DOB's plus some other information.

I surmise this because many Hispanics who are less than stellar citizens rearrange their names which can cause problems for like-named individuals. For instance, Juan Gonzales-Morales becomes Juan Morales Gonzolez, which delays the real JM Gonzalez when he purchases a firearm.

Because of the commonality of certain names in the black community, I suspec there are thousands of Steven Washinton's, Lawrence Jackson's and Mark Johnson's that have been used as both legitimate names as well as aliases.

If you're getting hits, providing as much identifying data as possible should cut down the possibilities of false positives. However, if your name is John Jeffery Smith and the authorities have a John Jackson Smith high on their wanted list, a purchase might be delayed.
 
My husband is forever getting "delayed." He's hispanic. Then again - he has the most common name in the hispanic world.

I gotta go with Csspecs on this one - I think it might be the name issue. There are a handful of surnames that are very common in both the black and hispanic community.

We are all passingly familiar with government efficiency, so it wouldn't surprise me if "Jackson," "Rodriguez," and "Gonzalez" cause the entire NICS system to whir loudly and produce a blue screen of death. :rolleyes:
 
I'm white but I have a common first and last name. I know that there is at least one person with both names that has a felony conviction. I alway put my SSAN on the form. NICS goes right through. At one time I had a job that had I put in for a passport and visa to visit some countries there would have been some excitement. I just wonder if I'm still on that list.
 
It all has to do with crime statistics: black and hispanic men are most likely to have been convicted of an offense, whites may or may not have been, and Asians either a) never break the law or b) never get caught breaking the law
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Wow, can we generalize just a little more?
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Maybe
How about more Black of Hispanic gun buyers in the OPs area are more likely to be involved in criminal activity than the typical white buyer in that area.
Also it is easier for minorities in some areas to have criminal backgrounds for many reasons

Gunownership is generally a white thing
Law abiding minorities may tend to avoid guns ,maybe because of socialization against
Go in with a wire...
Have a friend videotape it if possibe. (secretly)

if they give you any racisim you got them !
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How exactly do you video a phone call
 
OK, I went a little too far when I said Asians never get delayed by NICS. I should really have said that the incidence is so rare as to be remarkable when it happens. Except in the case of resident aliens.

Quote:
I have only been delayed once in the last 3 years. I am picking up a Glock 19 in VA today how much you want to bet I get delayed today.

PS I am Korean
Some questions: Are you a U.S. citizen, or a resident alien? Also, is your family name Park, Kim, or Lee? I figure U.S. citizens get through NICS faster than resident aliens. And if your family name is a common Korean name NICS might be getting a false positive on you based on some other Korean's record, particularly if you refuse to write your SS# on the 4473.
I'm half-Korean, but my name is not a common Korean name, so NICS has never taken me more than 20 minutes, and I never write my SS# on the form.
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My statement was more tongue and cheek then anything else. I have only been delayed once. It took less than an hour to resolve. Every other time it took less than 5 minutes to get an approval.

I do not see any racist aspects to the NICS system. My last name is unusual for a Korean. I am the only Korean Jew I have ever meet. I am 100% Korean and was born in Seoul. I am a naturalized citizen. I have absolutely no issues with the NICS system.

P.S. My transaction took less than 2 minutes yesterday. It took more time for me to look over used M1 Carbine then to do the NICS form.
 
Because of the commonality of certain names in the black community, I suspec there are thousands of Steven Washinton's, Lawrence Jackson's and Mark Johnson's that have been used as both legitimate names as well as aliases.
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oddly enough, why havent I met any white people with those "currency presidentual" last names of eras past ? who killed off their bloodlines ? I met only but american-blacks with those names, how on earth ! :confused:

washington
lincoln
jefferson
hamilton
jackson
........
 
That's just a little too far out for me to believe.

I've sold guns, proofread 4473's and called in NICS checks on lots of gun buyers here, in the Rio Grande Valley, and at Gun Shows in San Antonio and Austin and cannot agree.

The population here (in the valley) is about 93% Hispanic/Latino and most NICS go through without a problem. If there is a problem, its usually because "Juan Garza", No Middle Name, is too common and undistinguishable. Delays are usually brief and resolved.

Our African-American population down here is very low but I don't recall if we've ever had a delay or denial for those that are here.

That's not to say that racism doesn't occur, it does. A Texas Civil Rights group made a big splash last year when they revealed the results of a study of this area that showed that over 60% of the drivers that were pulled over were Hispanic. Yup, that's discrimination.
 
A Texas Civil Rights group made a big splash last year when they revealed the results of a study of this area that showed that over 60% of the drivers that were pulled over were Hispanic. Yup, that's discrimination.
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How you just said that 93% of the population is Hispanic.
 
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