NFA Devices for Home Defense (article)

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Andrew Wiggin said:
...it is extremely unlikely that you will be convicted if you act lawfully, even if you use a machine gun.....
Whether or not you acted lawfully will be determined by others after the fact and considering all factors, including the type of weapon you used. If the matter goes to a trial jury, you can expect your legal expenses to run between $50,000.00 and $150,000.00, or perhaps even more. Those will be your costs whether you are convicted or acquitted.

Andrew Wiggin said:
...Don't ever talk to cops....
So says a non-lawyer. Let's see what an actual lawyer, Andrew Branca, has to say on the issue:

  • (emphasis in original)
    ...The “say nothing until lawyer” advice is based on the reality that anything you say to police can and may be used against you. It’s certainly true that the only 100% certain way to avoid saying anything incriminating is to say nothing at all.

    Rarely mentioned, however, is that what you DON’T say can also be used against you. Sure, you have a Constitutional right to remain silent, and once you’ve asserted that right your silence cannot be used against you.

    But this privilege applies post-arrest. Your silence before then can certainly be used by the Prosecution to infer guilt—an innocent person would have mentioned self-defense at the time, they’ll argue, and the fact that you did not do so suggests you only fabricated your story of self-defense after the fact to avoid criminal liability....

  • (emphasis in original)
    The 911 Call: Be the Complainant, Not the Respondent

    A huge problem for Michael Dunn in his claim of self-defense was the considerable consciousness of guilt evidence he provided to prosecutors. In particular, his flight from the scene well beyond the need to secure his safety and his failure to ever report the shooting to law enforcement before he was arrested at gun point on a murder warrant. This conduct was far more consistent with the behavior of someone who believed he’d “gotten away with it,” than it was with the behavior who believed they’d acted in lawful self-defense. This was especially damaging given that the only evidence of self-defense came from Dunn’s own testimony in court....

  • (emphasis in original)
    ...Let’s assume for purposes of this post, then, that you buy into the value of being the complainant rather than the respondent, and you therefore are the first to call 911.

    Taking the “say nothing until I talk to my lawyer” advice literally, exactly what are you going to say when the dispatcher answers your call? “I will say nothing until I’ve spoken to my attorney.” Really? When they ask “what’s your emergency?” surely that statement can’t be your reply. Rather, you’ll necessarily provide some description of what’s happened and the location to which you’re asking law enforcement (and ambulance) be sent.

    So, you’re ALREADY speaking with the police. And as long as you’re doing so, my advice is to get your claim of self-defense into the evidentiary record as soon as possible. You were attacked, you were in fear for your life, you were forced to act in self-defense. Of course, all of this will be recorded, and that recording will be admissible in court. As a result, the jury will get to hear your claim of self-defense in your own words and voice, with all the stress of the moment that such an event necessarily brings with it....

Andrew Wiggin said:
...The argument is that using a scary gun could land a person in jail....
No one has claimed that. What we are challenging is your glib, fatuous dismissal of the possible legal implications of using certain weapons in self defense.

The reality is that you simply don't have the professional qualifications to responsibly opine on such matters, and the issues are more complex than you guess.

There may indeed be practical reasons to use of a suppressor on a home defense gun, for example. But you don't understand the legal issues, nor do you have the education, training, and professional experience to actually have the "clue" as to such matters which you, yourself, have told us in necessary to make an opinion on such things meaningful.
 
You were attacked, you were in fear for your life, you were forced to act in self-defense.

Of course you should give your name and inform responding officers that you live in the home (if that's the case). You should also offer your ID and CCW if you have one and point out any physical evidence. You should not attempt to make any statements about your actions.

I honestly didn't expect that you would take my post about not talking to police so literally, nor did I expect that you would consider a blog post by a lay person to be legal advice. I never claimed to be an expert and I thought that the line about opinions should be a clue that the article is worth every cent you paid for it.

Let's see what another attorney and a police officer has to say about taking to police: https://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc
 
That's okay, you could just cite a case where ANY scary gun resulted in a conviction.
That is not the only issue because a conviction is not the only way to lose in court. Civil cases don't result in conviction but can certainly ruin a person's life. In addition, it is generally much easier to lose a civil case as the defendant because the standard of proof is much lighter for the plaintiff to satisfy.

A light trigger, or firing a large number of shots(as might happen with a full auto firearm)--particularly if there's any way to make one or more of the shots look accidental--will make a very attractive set of circumstances for a civil case against a homeowner. If there is any way to convince a jury that the injury/death was accidental, then the homeowner's insurance becomes liable and that can create the potential for a very large payout.
That's okay, you could just cite a case where ANY scary gun resulted in a conviction.
This combines a number of fuzzy thinking errors.

1. The fact that the current audience can't come up with a concrete citation of an incident doesn't mean it has never happened. It just means that the current audience can't come up with a concrete citation of such an incident.

2. The fact that concrete citations of a certain type of event are hard to come by doesn't mean that a particular incident is impossible. It might mean that it is improbable but that's not the same thing.

3. The fact that something is improbable doesn't mean that it's unlikely to happen GIVEN THE PROPER CIRCUMSTANCES; it might just mean that the proper circumstances occur rarely. For example, it's rare to be struck by lightning, but if you stand on a high hill with no trees on it while holding a long iron pole in a thunderstorm THEN it becomes pretty likely you'll get struck. Why don't we see lots and lots of stories about people getting struck by lightning while standing on hills in thunderstorms and holding long iron poles? Because people very, VERY, rarely do such things.

4. The fact that something happens rarely doesn't mean that this is proof that setting up the circumstances under which it might reasonably be expected to occur is a good idea.

For example, let's say that a 65 year old female rocket scientist were to publicly express a desire to go nude bungee jumping using old and frayed bungee ropes. She would likely be assailed by advice claiming that such an escapade would be a bad idea.

Using your logic, she could justify her actions by requiring someone to cite a case where an elderly female rocket scientist has ever been injured while bungee jumping in the nude.

Of course, such a cite would be extremely difficult to find because ANY incidents involving elderly female rocket scientists engaging in nude bungee jumping with old bungee ropes are extremely rare--perhaps non-existent.

Clearly the rarity of such an event (and therefore the difficulty in finding a citation) doesn't make engaging in the activity a good idea. In fact, its rather obvious inadvisability may be one reason it's so rare.

In similar fashion, the use of NFA items in self-defense cases is quite rare and therefore ANY cases (let alone cases involving convictions) are hard to find. As far as I know, there are only two publicized cases.

The rarity (or perhaps absence) of convictions where NFA items were used in self-defense doesn't make using NFA items for self-defense a good idea any more than the rarity (or absence) of incidents involving elderly female rocket scientists who nude bungee jump with worn ropes makes engaging in such activity advisable.

It's also worth pointing out that searching for self-defense convictions involving NFA weapons isn't likely to produce many results. People aren't convicted of "self-defense". They are convicted of murder or assault with a deadly weapon. So there aren't any "self-defense cases" involving NFA weapons where the defendant was convicted. If the defendant was convicted then the case is a murder case or at least an assault with a deadly weapon case even if the defendant tried to claim self-defense.
The argument is that using a scary gun could land a person in jail. This argument cannot be true unless it has happened.
This claim is a major fail. Just a very little thought will demonstrate that if the claim were true then nothing (absolutely nothing) ever happens.

The claim implies that unless something has happened before, an assertion that it could happen in the future must be false.

Since everything that happens must have once happened for the first time--it must have once happened at a time when it had never happened before--the claim can not possibly be true.
My ear testing facility also told me that if you get to them jn 72 hours they can mostly reverse it.
I have read that early and aggressive treatment with steroids can often prevent hearing damage from becoming permanent.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3102156/#R92

"Combined treatment with a steroid (prednisolone) and the nootropic drug piracetam also appeared to rescue subjects from noise damage by gunshots"​

Psillas G, Pavlidis P, Karvelis I, et al. Potential efficacy of early treatment of acute acoustic trauma with steroids and piracetam after gunshot noise. Eur Arch Otorhinolaryngol. 2008;265:1465–1469. [PubMed]
 
We're running in circles here. There don't appear to be any citable cases that directly address this, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility. Credible and experienced attorneys have demonstrated potential risk.

Should we ever get a test case, we can revisit the issue. In the meantime, this one has run its course.
 
I'm going to jump in here to make a couple of comments to rebut some questionable statements by the OP in post 62. If the Andrew Wiggin wishes to answer my comments, he can PM me, and I'll re-open the thread for him.

Andrew Wiggin said:
...I honestly didn't expect that you would take my post about not talking to police so literally...
Why not? You wrote in post 54:
Andrew Wiggin said:
...Don't ever talk to cops....
That's a pretty clear and direct statement without any room for interpretation. Is there some reason we weren't supposed to believe that's what you intended to say? What else have you written that we're not supposed to take literally?

Andrew Wiggin said:
...nor did I expect that you would consider a blog post by a lay person to be legal advice....
Except you made comments on legal matters. Were people supposed to not take those comments seriously? How were we supposed to know that? If you didn't expect to be taken seriously, why would you have written what you wrote?

Andrew Wiggin said:
...I never claimed to be an expert and I thought that the line about opinions should be a clue that the article is worth every cent you paid for it....
In other words, you wrote an entire article which people were not supposed to take seriously? What other articles have you written that we shouldn't be taking seriously?

Andrew Wiggin said:
...Let's see what another attorney and a police officer has to say about taking to police: https://youtu.be/6wXkI4t7nuc
Yes, most of us are familiar with the video. The lawyer and police officer are discussing police contact in general. Here we've been discussing specifically a police contact following an incident in which you've used violence against another person and intend to claim that you were legally justified in doing so. That makes a difference, and the difference was alluded to in the Andrew Branca article I linked to in post 61.
 
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