Newhall shootout in California

Spent shell casings in the pocket

Perhaps the officer was crouching beside the car and didn't want bad guys to know he was reloading. So instead of dropping the casings on the pavement, and annoucing that his gun was empty, he dropped them in his pocket while he was reloading.
 
Perhaps the officer was crouching beside the car and didn't want bad guys to know he was reloading. So instead of dropping the casings on the pavement, and annoucing that his gun was empty, he dropped them in his pocket while he was reloading.
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Nope. The CHP range officers didn't want brass cluttering up their nicely manicured lawns, so trainees were told to pocket their brass :rolleyes:.

This is just more confirmation that, when under stress, you'll do exactly what you were trained to do. Bad training = bad results.
 
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Perhaps the officer was crouching beside the car and didn't want bad guys to know he was reloading. So instead of dropping the casings on the pavement, and annoucing that his gun was empty, he dropped them in his pocket while he was reloading.
Nope. The CHP range officers didn't want brass cluttering up their nicely manicured lawns, so trainees were told to pocket their brass .

This is just more confirmation that, when under stress, you'll do exactly what you were trained to do. Bad training = bad results.
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We don't really know why he did it. I just think it is wrong to assume he was making a silly mistake, when there is another plausible explanation.

Just my opinion but I think it is much much more likely that he was trying to quietly reload.
 
Sorry Catfish, that is like the old "The M1 is bad because the enemy can hear the 'ping' of the clip, and know where you are, and that you are empty" argument. In the case of the M1, you just fired 1 to 8 rounds of 30-06 at them, so they already know where you are. And a good man with an M1 (I have seen several) can have it reloaded before the clip hits the ground.
(For the M1 it is a 'clip', not a 'charger', per Uncle Sam!)

As for quietly reloading, the Newhall incident was not the only one where officers reverted to their training, and pocketed their brass. There were other CHP incidents, along with comments by shooters like Skeeter Skelton.
 
We don't really know why he did it. I just think it is wrong to assume he was making a silly mistake, when there is another plausible explanation.

Just my opinion but I think it is much much more likely that he was trying to quietly reload.
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Other LE across the country have put their brass in their pockets in the middle of a gunfight. Some died as a result. The cause was, without question, traced to their training were they TRAINED themselves to put their brass in their pockets rather than practice speed loading and police their brass afterwards. Instructors did nothing to correct the practice. As Charlie points out, pocketing their brass may have been a requirement with some agencies.

The placing of brass in the pocket is a rote function, done without thought, while the mind is concentrating on other things. I'm trained to jump in my car, start it up, release the emer. brake, put it in gear and head out. Don't think about any of it. I'm TRAINED to do it without thinking, like all of us.

I see citizens training themselves to get killed in gunfights all the time. Like ejecting their magazine into their hand and putting it in their pocket.

But not where LE is concerned, since they've long since updated their training and made speed loading a part of it.
 
A person who goes into a potential armed encounter with his body armor in the trunk does not have an "extraordinary mindset".

I agree that once he got into the fight he did very well and his mindset DURING the fight leaves nothing to be desired. But clearly he didn't go into the fight with the proper preparation and that makes it obvious that his mindset was less than ideal going into the fight.
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I think body armor in the trunk is more a tactic. However, it would be tough to seperate mindset from tactics, so I won't try.

I'm just trying to point out that most officers go on the job with similar "mindsets"--attitude would be a better description.

When the Monte Carlo was spotted and the agents were notified, I suspect all of their mindsets changed in a hurry to "this is the day".

What didn't change for Mereles, is that his vest (that wouldn't have stopped .223 rds.) was still in the trunk of the car where he couldn't reach it and he couldn't do a dang thing about it at that point.

Poor tactic/mindset re: his vest? OK, but not so bad having his shotgun handy. The only long gun on the good guys side.:cool:
 
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Obviously, I could be wrong - but so could you guys. I'm making my statement as an opinion and y'all seem to think that you have stated some provable facts.

Apparently, the "brass in the pocket" thing has been discussed before. That doesn't mean the conclusion that was arrived at was correct. It's impossible to know that an officer putting brass in his pocket was due to training and it's impossible to know that it got him killed. Dumping the brass on the pavement might get him killed? Way to many variables at an event that none of us witnessed.

It's an interesting theory, don't state it as fact.
 
It's an interesting theory, don't state it as fact.
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I guess I'll have to speculate that no officer who just ran his gun dry would give first priority to saving his brass and second priority to reloading his gun, and further speculate that it was a training issue as opposed to a conscious tactical decision.:cool:

Just my thoughts on the matter.;)
 
Modern or recent training standards; pistol vs DA revolver...

I'd add to this topic that weapons training or tactical skill training can help address some of these issues too in a real world event.
Many sworn LE officers, federal agents & other armed professionals(bodyguards, PSCs, security officers, etc) train to make tactical reloads or transition to other fully loaded weapons in critical incidents.
These factors also show why a 15/16/18 shot duty pistol is far better than a 5 or 6 shot DA revolver in 2011.
To say "6 for sure" or "wheel guns are real guns" may sound macho or cool but in the real world, there is honestly little or no practical reason not to use a semi auto pistol or pistols on duty. With little effort you get nearly 3 times the firepower. ;)
 
Other stuff

Here is a training film made by the CHP that goes into great detail about the Newhall Incident. Even has a tape of Twinning telling a reporter that he will kill himself before he goes back to prison. http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/27581823

On the Miami Shootout. The agents had body armor but not sufficient to stop 5.56 bullets only handgun ammo. Wouldn't have helped them. Mireles didn't really kill Platt, he was already dead from the shot Dove had delivered earlier in the fight. He just didn't know it yet. Matix fired one shot and was out of the fight from the beginning. As Mireles said in a statement he made later. He had heard a lot of BGs say they would never be taken alive but 99.9% of them were full of it and gave up when confronted. This time they didn't. Maybe that was part of the mindset. Best book on Miami Shoout is by a Dr. Anderson French. I have read it and it is very detailed.
 
Catfishman said:
I just think it is wrong to assume he was making a silly mistake, when there is another plausible explanation.
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That's an interesting statement, in that it echoes the beliefs of most LE instructors prior to Newhall. It was considered bad taste to criticize the actions of a fallen officer. Mistakes were never mentioned, which effectively eliminated a wealth of training material.

Newhall ushered in a new era and a wave of officer survival training swept the country. It gradually became OK to say, "Officer Smith was a great guy, but he screwed up, and it got him killed."

Apparently, the "brass in the pocket" thing has been discussed before. That doesn't mean the conclusion that was arrived at was correct. It's impossible to know that an officer putting brass in his pocket was due to training and it's impossible to know that it got him killed.
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Technically, that's correct, as the only one that could confirm that is dead.

In the mid 70's, I participated in an intense 40 hr. officer survival course in Arizona. One of my instructors was one of the original Newhall investigators. I'm sorry that I can't provide a link, but the conclusion about brass being pocketed came from him, face to face. That was 35 years ago, and while I've forgotten a lot about Newhall, for some reason that was one of the things that stuck in my mind.
 
On the Miami Shootout. The agents had body armor but not sufficient to stop 5.56 bullets only handgun ammo. Wouldn't have helped them. Mireles didn't really kill Platt, he was already dead from the shot Dove had delivered earlier in the fight. He just didn't know it yet. Matix fired one shot and was out of the fight from the beginning. As Mireles said in a statement he made later. He had heard a lot of BGs say they would never be taken alive but 99.9% of them were full of it and gave up when confronted. This time they didn't. Maybe that was part of the mindset. Best book on Miami Shoout is by a Dr. Anderson French. I have read it and it is very detailed.
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Haven't read Dr. French's book. I might just get a copy. I did like Ayoobs' version of events, even though his critics picked him apart on certain points he may not of gotten perfect. Remember that the FBI's own accounts didn't get everything perfect, either.

LOL, Mattix had been shot be Dove and was dead---he just didn't know it yet? Well, he did after Mereles killed him again.:D
 
Mattix had been shot be Dove and was dead---he just didn't know it yet? Well, he did after Mereles killed him again.
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Not Matix, Platt.

Yes, Platt's initial chest wound was unsurvivable. Medical experts have said that even had he immediately given up and received medical attention he was losing blood too quickly to have survived.

Platt was already in bad enough shape that he was having difficulty walking and when he walked over to Mireles, who was on the ground using a car for cover, and shot him at point blank range in the head with a revolver, he missed. And even though he missed he never realized it--he walked back to the car and got into it.

It's true that Mireles put an end to the fight by shooting Platt in the head while he sat in the car, but the eyewitness evidence suggests that when he did so, Platt was already unable to fight effectively and was just seconds from dying or losing consciousness.
 
Haven't read Dr. French's book. I might just get a copy.
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Paladin Press (of course). I think it is the most authoritative version I have seen. Mas did a good job and many ofthe things he missed didn't turn up until later but it was generally correct. Some of it will never be known.

John is right, it was Platt. It also was Platt who did all the damage. Matix was out very early on and it was Grogan or Hanlon who took him out wiht a shot thru the wrist and arm. Platt was a dead man walking but he walked long enough to kill two agents and wound several more. As Dr. Anderson said, the human body can do much if the will commands it to.
 
It's true that Mireles put an end to the fight by shooting Platt in the head while he sat in the car, but the eyewitness evidence suggests that when he did so, Platt was already unable to fight effectively and was just seconds from dying or losing consciousness.
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OK, I thought Maddux had been shot and incapacitated early on and that Mireles walked up to the car and put rds. in both of them. Thanks for the clarification.

There was also speculation that Maddux's ear drum was ruptured by Platt's Mini 14, but I understand that the autopsy showed otherwise.
 
OK, I thought Maddux had been shot and incapacitated early on and that Mireles walked up to the car and put rds. in both of them. Thanks for the clarification.
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Mireles did walk up to the car and put rounds in both of them at the end of the fight, however, Matix was incapacitated early in the fight and was never a factor (he might have fired a single shot but it didn't hit anyone), and eyewitness evidence indicates that by the time Mireles shot Platt in the car, Platt was already having severe difficulty functioning due to massive blood loss.
 
RE: Brass in the pocket - after the change in CHP (and other agency) training about dropping brass on the ground, there were no further reports of officers found with brass in their pockets after a shooting. This was not immediate, as it took some time to change ingrained patterns from training. This tends to prove that the officer(s) were conditioned to putting their brass in their pockets on the range.

RE: Body Armor - most commentators here are making a common mistake, imputing to the FBI agents information that was only known later. Once they identified the car, not one agent stopped to get his shotgun out of the trunk, nor did any one other than the one supervisor get his body armor and put it on. No one knew before the first shots were fired that they would be facing a rifle. And even then, if you wear your armor, a round that has hit an intermediate barrier (car door, window glass) may be stopped by pistol rated armor.

And during my years as a Fed, I did stop on several occasions on the side of the road to don body armor and obtain my shotgun, before rejoining a moving surveillance.
 
Keep in mind also, if they are "undercover" then there will be times when you can't wear a vest, or have it on the seat for quick access. You are hardly undercover wearing the body armor of that era with a shotgun bolted to the dash.

I don't recall if that was the case in Miami, I read several write up's of the shooting itself, but don't recall if they were all "undercover" or not.
 
There is a vast difference between working undercover (direct intentional contact with crooks) and plain clothes. On the assignment they had, the only reason for not wearing body armor is comfort, which reverts to mindset.

I was a plain clothes investigator at the time, I know.
 
I grant that, I didn't know what their assignment was, I only read write ups of the shooting itself. If I was going out looking for armed bank robbers, I am wearing my vest and keeping a long gun handy. They assumed nothing would happen, and were not prepared for what did happen.
 
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