Newbie seeking answers

Ding:

To answer your question, First, State & Local laws do NOT override Federal laws!
Secondly, I am not sure about the purchase limitations of someone between the ages of 18 to 20 in regard to a handgun because I did not check it out (I can check it out tonight when I review my legal paperwork at home).

However Federal Law 18 USC 922(x) is clear:
"It is unlawful for any person who is a juvenile(less than 18) to knowingly possess:
A. a handgun; or
B. ammunition that is suitable for use in a handgun.

I also did not believe the restrictions were that severe, that is why I wrote to the ATF & the NRA, however, they backed up the law.

Tonight when I get home I will give you the link to the ATF web site where it is explained. I have found a lot of shooters have no idea that this is in the Federal lawbooks. But from the flak I received from my local Range operator the FBI & ATF and well aware of it!
 
get that 22/45 and enjoy it. you wont be sorry !

Tim :)

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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones:::
 
Guys, guys, guys,
I feel like I'm spitting into the wind here.
Now that I'm home I can look up some legal info concerning this issue.

1. It is illegal (Federal Law) for any FFL dealer to Sell a handgun to anyone under 18.
(See: http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm)

2. It is illegal under Federal Law for anyone under 18 to Possess a handgun or handgun ammo except under very limited circumstances.
(See: http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/i53002.pdf)

3. It is illegal under Utah State law for anyone under 18 to Possess a handgun unless he has permission from a parent or guardian.
(See http://www.nraila.org/research/19990716-FirearmLawSummary-022.html)

I hate to beat a point home but until Ding is 18 the only persons who can purchase a handgun is Ding's parents. And even if he is allowed to use a handgun purchased by his parents he can only be given the handgun at the range if:
1. He has his parent's WRITTEN permission.
2. He keeps it on his person at all times he possesses the handgun.

Ding - My recommendation to you is the following:
1. Get proficient on a .22 rifle, you can't go wrong with that.
2. With your parent's permission, become a member of a shooting club or group.
3. After being a member for a while see if a senior member of the group can be a mentor for you. Have him speak to your parents. If you want to shoot a handgun you can then do it under his direct supervision.

Good Luck, I hope you enjoy the shooting sports as much as I do. But remember, this is not the 1950's. Since 1968 laws have been put in place that put someone such as you in a dangerous position in regard to firearm laws.

Federal laws: 18 USC 922(x):
(x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile --
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess --
(A) a handgun; or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(3) This subsection does not apply to --

(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile --

(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not
prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except --
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container
directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor; or
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause (i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;

(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and (iv) in accordance with State and local law;

(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National
Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;

(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile; or

(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.

(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in
circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be
subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile
subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.

(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18
years of age.

(6)(A) In a prosecution of a violation of this subsection, the court shall require the
presence of a juvenile defendant's parent or legal guardian at all proceedings.

(B) The court may use the contempt power to enforce subparagraph (A).

(C) The court may excuse attendance of a parent or legal guardian of a juvenile defendant at a proceeding in a prosecution of a violation of this subsection for good cause shown.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ding:
The general consensus here seems to be that I should start with a .22 It sounds like a good idea now. I'll read up a bit on those guns you guys mentioned. And no, I don't have any friends who'd be willing to teach me firearms. Guns aren't very popular in UT, it seems...

As for the legality of this, in the state of UT, if you're between 14 and 18 years old, you only need your parents' permission or be accompanied by them. I think I'll be fine.

I think I'll go with a .22 after all and get something bigger later on. Thanks for all the advice, guys.[/quote]

I think a used Glock 17/19 would be a good idea for a beginner that is interested in guns. With a bit of shopping you can probably get a police turn in that has been reconditioned cheaper than a similar quality 22. Unless you have access to someplace where you can plink most anytime, like a farm, or you need to shoot a lot or rodents/pigeons/crows the 9mm is much better than a 22 IMO.

Anything a 22 can do, can be done with a good BB gun or dryfire of a real gun. The BB gun will be even cheaper than a 22 while the 9 mm works a whole lot better than a 22 on non-paper targets.

Plus the BB gun can be safely shot in a basement or garage (with parents permission) thus allowing you to practice a lot more. Cardboard boxes and newspapers/phonebooks for target and primary backstop with a big piece or two of plywood/partical board for secondary backstop with some carpet remnants or cardboard over the boards to reduce "bouncers".

Also Glock's can be dryfired (you have to do field strip them anyway) while most everyone says it is BAD for the gun to dryfire 22's.

Also you can reload for 9mm if you want and a press and etc would cost about what a "cheap" 22 would.

My $.02
YMMV

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There can be only one!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by desmond57:
Ding, You (and your parents) need to be informed as to the FEDERAL laws.

You have gotten great advice here, BUT, you need to be aware that it is against FEDERAL
law for you to own a Handgun if you are under 18. The handling of a handgun without the WRITTEN permission of your parents on YOUR PERSON is a violation of federal law.
And even with that only under special circumstances is it allowed (target ranges, at home, etc.)

How do I know this? I was informed by one of the ranges I took my 15 year old to, I checked the ATF web site, I wrote letters to both the ATF & the NRA. All confirmed what I said above.

My recommendation, get a .22 Rifle. (A Marlin would be great). Remember, the smallest conviction against your record today could prevent you from EVER owning a gun Ever again.

So be safe until you are 18 and save you dollars till then.[/quote]

Eek! The JBT's will be coming after me now. Because I let supervised kids shoot my guns!!! Wonder what they do if you let them, the kids, use a Koran or Bible or Torah? :p

BTW The conviction wouldn't prevent you from owning a gun. Only from legally owning a gun. By the time he is 21 he might not be able to legally own one? Course at 18 he could join the military and be ISSUED a handgun/SAW/M16/ etc.

<Rant mode off>
 
I'll recommend the CZ-75 w/ kadet conversion. You'll have a quality 9mm for a reasonable price and a .22. A bit more than the base 9mm, but you'll save the difference on ammo with the .22 kit.

If you go to a dedicated .22, then I'd skip the Ruger 22/45. This is a very ugly gun (a factor that will possibly affect resale) that makes a Glock look like a beauty queen. It also requires model specific mags and can't use the more plentiful MK II versions. The only virtue (unless someone cares to disabuse me) I can see for the gun over the MK II is that is simulates the grip of the 1911 . Buy the MK II instead, or the (less reliable) Buckmark with its nicer grip and trigger.

A word to the beginner is that autos can be less forgiving than revolvers. You can't see into the chamber (even the extractor/indicator on some guns isn't a great deal of help). Also, some are able to fire w/o a mag, and some can't. You also need to be aware that you have to drop the mag, then clear the chamber when unloading. Thus, you must read the owner's manual before firing.

I imagine that since you are 16 and in college, you are well capable of absorbing this, but it only takes a moment of brain fade to change/end your life or someone else's.
 
desmond57 is absolutely correct.
Handguns are not an option for Ding at this time... Ding's parents would have to purchase a handgun and Dad would have to come to the range with him.
A .22 rifle is a good start for someone who has never touched or fired a live firearm before.

Ding - I am 4 blocks away from your college.
If you would like, we could arrange a trip to the PMAA range just a few minutes up the canyon... I am available most any saturday. Buy a box of .22 shells (CCI Stingers or Remington Vipers) and a box of .45ACP shells (Speer Lawman or other decent load - just no yellow or white boxes) and bring your Dad.
I'll go over the basics with you and give you a good start. You will learn safety, basic rifle marksmanship, handgun safety and that the mighty .45 aint bad. Hell, my wife packs one! Send me an email if your serious about learning.

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Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
 
I still think you and your dad ought to find a good NRA course. I have shot all my life from age 6. I took the class last year with my wife, and was amazed by what I learned. By the way, a .45 ain't bad at all, my wife also carries one! But just like everyone else said, have your dad to get you a .22, and just try to wear it out. The more you shoot it, the better you'll get, and when you turn the proper age, you'll be ready for a centerfire.

[This message has been edited by Frontsight! (edited May 09, 2000).]
 
if under 18, you can't own anything, even if you bought it. his parents would be the owners, and he could use it.
 
Ding: It sounds as though your search has been completed.

You should take George Hill up on his offer. :)All you have to buy is some ammo and you get instruction, advice and some fun shooting time with Mr. Hill. :DMake sure too take you daddy with you and he might "Catch the Bug" along with you.

E-mail Mr. Hill and go have fun.
--plinker2--
 
I also live in utah. BTW the shooting comunity is alive and well here. most of the people I am around have some connection with guns. I would also be willing to take you and your dad out shooting. I have been around guns all my life. currently I participate in IHMSA silioutte, steel plate matches and have in the past shot bowling pins. If you would like to try any of those sports drop me an e-mail and I can help you out. I also shoot with a guy that teaches hunter safty he has a class starting may 16 the cost is $6 and would be a good place to start. I have three kids that will be attending. let me know if I can be of any help
 
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