New York man Killed

We've been through this before im sure, but the 9mm parabellum has a suitable energy with low weight 'cause of high velocity: Without expanding ammunition (in this country illegal even for LEO's -!!!) its overpenetration has the double problem of going through walls (also got some cases on record - one TV press crew injured among them) and its weak stopping power: The NY shooting 'pears to be the second - even if hit the suspect wouldnt show it so cops spray away.
When we started IPSC in Buenos Aires more'n 15 years back (?) we thought to have joint civilian/police/military matches... as one range officer put it, when many of the latter were shooting "the safest place was in front of the target" - Somertimes wonder if instructors shouldn't wear Kevlar :) - Here as anywhere i guess, civilian enthusiasts get to put in MUCH more time at the range than guys and gals 'on the job': No fault of theirs but of official policy and budget restrains...
 
QUOTE

From the San Antonio Express-News; 2/14/99; Pg 6A

New York officers to get hollow-point ammunition

NEW YORK -- Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said Saturday the Police Department soon would issue hollow-point bullets to officers to improve public safety. ...

"We came to the conclusion a few months ago after studying it very carefully that hollow-point bullets would actually be safer than the bullets that were being used," said Giuliana, joined by Police Commissioner Howard Safir at a City Hall news conference." ...

UNQUOTE

Rest easy, New York.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited February 14, 1999).]
 
Have the police officers involved in this shooting ever given their side of the event?
I haven't heard anything in some time.
 
As of two days ago, there was still no statement from the officers or the department, but there was a "big" rally of a coalition of minority groups protesting the way the case is being hadnled. They want the officers arresed and charged with murder immediately.
 
I don't necessarily want that or even think it would be appropriate. But surely the officers'lawyers, the officers' union, and the officers themselves know how bad this long period of total silence appears? These guys are hurting themselves badly. The longer they say nothing, the more people will feel that the reason is to hide guilt.
 
Good points by all, especially about the Feds covering their #$$*!. Ruby Ridge is a good example...the HRT sniper got off scott free! By the way, an old friend who is in the FBI says that within the bureau, the HRT is known as the "Hostage Roasting Team" by good agents who still keep the faith. Regarding the sad case of the West African man killed in NYC, what do you expect? It's been reported that the people who killed him were not local precinct/community based officers...they were part of the "elite" Street Crimes Unit. You know, the pricks reportedly with the motto "We own the night". They're the ones empowered by Rudy to stop ANYONE on the street w/o any PC at all and frisk them, question them and just generally jerk them around. Gents, this is what leads to an attitude of superiority on the part of LEOs, and believe me, I am PRO LEO. My Dad and two uncles were career LEOs and I spent about half my Army career as a MP officer. But anytime you take a group of people, provide them with special training, weapons, and special powers, etc. you engender an attitude of superiority over other LEOs and the public in general unless you closely supervise those folks and monitor their activities intensively. This leads directly to abuses of authority and violations of rights. They just did't care about the man...they didn't wait to see what would be in his hand (and I believe they would have had ample time to determine that, based on what I've heard). I mean, they own the night...that means they get to violate individual's rights on a daily basis with impunity throughout every precinct/borough in the city, right? This is the type of LE that if it spreads and continues, I fear for the overall state of respect for the rule of law and constitutional rights in our nation. It's another reason that I have always had real problems with our policy of providing DOD Special Ops training to civilian police agencies. It quite often leads to tragedies/abuses such as this.
 
I asked our local Gun God about the Diallo incident, asking him why "trained" professionals only managed a 46% hit rate on a stationary target 15 feet away.

He shook his head and said, "It's worse than that. 16 of those hits were minor. Only *three* were lethal. Most of them hit the guy's outstretched hands and lower arms."

Sad. My friends and I recreated that incident to the best of our ability... full-size silhouette, 15 feet away. I had a Sigma .40, two guys had Ruger P90s, and one had a Russian .380.

We simultaneously unloaded on the target until our magazines were empty (33 shots total). Results:

20 lethals (all in the triangle, no head shots)

10 probables (just below the triangle)

3 possibles (gut hits)

None of us are LEOs. I'm the only one with military experience (USAF load-toad).

And HCI says only cops should have guns. Feh.
 
Coin,

I hope you have some concpet of just how UN-viable your comparison was.

How about this.. you and your buddies walking around at night waiting for an armed bad-guy to shoot you from a covered and concealed spot. You are holding flashlights and guns trying to find him before he kills you or escapes and could kill someone else. You are surprised by a man who makes an aggressive move... THEN you shoot your 33 rounds and tally the score again.
 
Rob -

Valid points all. However, duplicating the situation to that extent would likely have ended up with all of us in jail :)

And like I said, "to the best of our ability." The range closes at dusk, and we couldn't find someone willing to let us take shots at him while he scampered in front of the berm.


[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited February 25, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited February 25, 1999).]
 
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