Virgil Cain
New member
I read in USA Today that a man was shot by police. They fires a total of 41 rounds only hitting the man 19 times. AND THEY SAY WE CANT HAVE HIGH CAPACITY MAGS. Turns out the Guy wasn't deseving of the shots.
New York man Killed
- Thread starter Virgil Cain
- Start date
Rob Pincus
New member
THat last bit is still up in the air. While they did not find a weapon, he may have done something to justify the shooting.
The news hit a few days ago that the federal gov't began investigating the shooting shortly after it took place. Now that one of the officers has "apologized" National media is jumping on the bandwagon to hammer the cops.
The mayor of New York stood behind the officers last week. We'll see how stiff he keeps his backbone.
The news hit a few days ago that the federal gov't began investigating the shooting shortly after it took place. Now that one of the officers has "apologized" National media is jumping on the bandwagon to hammer the cops.
The mayor of New York stood behind the officers last week. We'll see how stiff he keeps his backbone.
Virgil Cain
New member
I hope everything works out. Crap like that gives cops a bad name. It is hard enough to work the streets without things like that. I wish for one that they could learn to shot or something. Really, 19 out of 41 sucks. Not to mention the liablilty. Seems to me like the NYPD need a 10 roung mag instead of me. Also a lesson on how to aim. NO weapon NO PC. That was overkill for no weapon to be on the person.
[This message has been edited by Virgil Cain (edited 02-09-99).]
[This message has been edited by Virgil Cain (edited 02-09-99).]
I did read in the initail reports that that the guy reached into his jacket. That a stupid thing to do, but it doesn't warrant being shot at 41 times. They were in his building looking for a rape suspect. 41 shots is excessive, and missing on 22 is just plain sucks esp. if you've seen the distances that they were shooting from. he was shot in the vestibule area of his building, so the cops couldn't have been that far away
garrick
garrick
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Well, to be evenhanded I have to treat a police shooting the same way I would treat a civilian shooting. When prosecutors have whined, "He shot the man 8 times! This is overkill and cannot be considered self defense!"...my rejoinder has always been: If the first shot was justified so were the ones following. Once you decide to use lethal force you continue until the threat has ceased. There is no such thing as a little bit of lethal force or a lot of lethal force.
However, reaching into one's pockets is not justification especially if the officers were in plainclothes. Everytime I get pulled over, I reach into my pocket. Gee, does that mean it is okay to shoot me?
However, reaching into one's pockets is not justification especially if the officers were in plainclothes. Everytime I get pulled over, I reach into my pocket. Gee, does that mean it is okay to shoot me?
Rich Lucibella
Staff
The tragic side of this is the death.
The political side of it, IMHO, has to do with the speed with which the Feds came in to investigate. Could it be that this Administration considers local law enforcement as unworthy of trust as the American citizen?
Welcome to "the barrel", guys.
Rich
The political side of it, IMHO, has to do with the speed with which the Feds came in to investigate. Could it be that this Administration considers local law enforcement as unworthy of trust as the American citizen?
Welcome to "the barrel", guys.
Rich
In the interest of protecting civil rights, the Federal Government has extended its powers into areas traditionally within the powers reserved for the States and the citizenry. I'm afraid that if the trend continues, there'll be only one Central government in this land with all lesser forms of government serving as pale administrative authority acting on its behalf. Sadly, Mao, Stalin and Hitler would be proud.
Ray VanderLinden
New member
Welcome to the Barrel? Rich we in LE have been there so long it seems like we were born there.
For LEOs there are 5 times they are held to trail.
1. Local Authority. (ie City or County Goverment)
2. State level Criminal trial.
3. State level Civil trial.
4. Federal level Criminal Trial.
5. Federal level Civil trial.
Double Jepordy Never applies. You can be charged and tried 5 times on the exact same charges!
Once they get the citizens "disarmed" (no matter if the criminals still have weapons) then they will disarm the Police, or nationalize them.
For LEOs there are 5 times they are held to trail.
1. Local Authority. (ie City or County Goverment)
2. State level Criminal trial.
3. State level Civil trial.
4. Federal level Criminal Trial.
5. Federal level Civil trial.
Double Jepordy Never applies. You can be charged and tried 5 times on the exact same charges!
Once they get the citizens "disarmed" (no matter if the criminals still have weapons) then they will disarm the Police, or nationalize them.
Firstly if the man that was killed was NOT a criminal and just an average citizen, I hope the judicial system screws the LEOs tighter than a Cuban cigar !
From all the stats I have read, 19 out of 41 isn't too bad. I would back that up with facts but that would take quite a long time ! What would be scary, if the LEOs hit ratio at the lobby distance was say less than 10rnds - which would seem to be the norm for the training they recieve.
Either these guys were lucky shots or trained a bit more than most. If they did train more, you would think that an unjustified shooting would not have happened !
Catch 22 ?
------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
From all the stats I have read, 19 out of 41 isn't too bad. I would back that up with facts but that would take quite a long time ! What would be scary, if the LEOs hit ratio at the lobby distance was say less than 10rnds - which would seem to be the norm for the training they recieve.
Either these guys were lucky shots or trained a bit more than most. If they did train more, you would think that an unjustified shooting would not have happened !
Catch 22 ?
------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Raymond-
Don't misunderstand. I know you guys operate between a rock and a hard place. But it is my understanding that it's unusual for Federal Prosecutors to show up on the scene so quickly.
Rich
Don't misunderstand. I know you guys operate between a rock and a hard place. But it is my understanding that it's unusual for Federal Prosecutors to show up on the scene so quickly.
Rich
Rob Pincus
New member
HS makes a very valid point. Regardless of the implications, 19 out of 41 isn't that far off from a "good" ratio for a shooting. Compared to the shootings (LEO) I am familar with directly, that is VERY GOOD. 50% is above average in many departments.
As for the political ramifications, I tend to give LEOs or CCW holders the benefit of the doubt, so I say let's just assume that this guy did something to deserve getting shot AT THAT TIME. What I don't give any break for is bad Strategy. Bad strategy like may have been responsible for the things that happened in Waco, at Ruby Ridge, in Miami, etc., etc. If those officers were justified in being in that building and if they were expecting a dangerous, armed criminal and if this guy did something threatening that violated an instruction from the officers.. Well, I can see how he ends up getting shot. Personally, this is one more episode for me to be thinking about the next time I draw my gun. Guess What.. at that time the last thing I should be thinking about is politics.. I have my life nad potentially the lives of other officers or citizens to worry about. One of my recurring "bad thoughts" that sends chils up my spine is having a gun on a guy that is not armed but does something threatening enough to justify a shooting or lead me to believe he is going for a weapon. I can only imagine how those officers must feel right now, hopefully, I will never know... but I can see how it happens.
------------------
-Essayons
As for the political ramifications, I tend to give LEOs or CCW holders the benefit of the doubt, so I say let's just assume that this guy did something to deserve getting shot AT THAT TIME. What I don't give any break for is bad Strategy. Bad strategy like may have been responsible for the things that happened in Waco, at Ruby Ridge, in Miami, etc., etc. If those officers were justified in being in that building and if they were expecting a dangerous, armed criminal and if this guy did something threatening that violated an instruction from the officers.. Well, I can see how he ends up getting shot. Personally, this is one more episode for me to be thinking about the next time I draw my gun. Guess What.. at that time the last thing I should be thinking about is politics.. I have my life nad potentially the lives of other officers or citizens to worry about. One of my recurring "bad thoughts" that sends chils up my spine is having a gun on a guy that is not armed but does something threatening enough to justify a shooting or lead me to believe he is going for a weapon. I can only imagine how those officers must feel right now, hopefully, I will never know... but I can see how it happens.
------------------
-Essayons
Ray VanderLinden
New member
Rich,
I'd agree with you if the LEOs were Federal, they are nearly always held blameless. The Feds go after Local LEOs when the State doesn't get them.
And don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this was a good shoot of even a shoot that would have seemed nessassary, I wasn't there so the shooting needs to be closely investigated.
I will agree that the better an Officer or a Civilian is trained the less likely he/she is to shoot out of fear or when it isn't nessassary. They also don't tend to have the "follow along" fire, like the NYC Cops seem to have had. ie one shoots so they all shoot.
[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited February 14, 1999).]
I'd agree with you if the LEOs were Federal, they are nearly always held blameless. The Feds go after Local LEOs when the State doesn't get them.
And don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this was a good shoot of even a shoot that would have seemed nessassary, I wasn't there so the shooting needs to be closely investigated.
I will agree that the better an Officer or a Civilian is trained the less likely he/she is to shoot out of fear or when it isn't nessassary. They also don't tend to have the "follow along" fire, like the NYC Cops seem to have had. ie one shoots so they all shoot.
[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited February 14, 1999).]
Watched Worlds Scariest Police Shootouts today. One stuck, where they had an accused Nazi camp guard pointing a .22 revolver at them. He then fired 2 shots at the LEOs.
They fired a total of 9 shots (from cover) with ONE hit.... now that's scary!
The hit was in the leg - either by accident or design... I'll vote by accident !
Oh, btw.... if you multiply the 1 & 9 by 5 = 5 shots out of 45 .....guess who's dept needs some more training !
The distance was some 30ft !!
------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
They fired a total of 9 shots (from cover) with ONE hit.... now that's scary!
The hit was in the leg - either by accident or design... I'll vote by accident !
Oh, btw.... if you multiply the 1 & 9 by 5 = 5 shots out of 45 .....guess who's dept needs some more training !
The distance was some 30ft !!
------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
Dateline: July/August edition of American Handgunner.
A suspect was on a balcony when the Dallas Policemen opened fire.
117rnds were expended with 5 cars, 4 streetlights & 3 houses being hit.
The suspect fell from the balcony & the following autopsy revealed NO bullet wounds !
It would seem that "spray & pray" does work sometimes.
I sincerely hope that 3 &1/2 years later, those guys have put in some time at the range !
------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
A suspect was on a balcony when the Dallas Policemen opened fire.
117rnds were expended with 5 cars, 4 streetlights & 3 houses being hit.
The suspect fell from the balcony & the following autopsy revealed NO bullet wounds !
It would seem that "spray & pray" does work sometimes.
I sincerely hope that 3 &1/2 years later, those guys have put in some time at the range !
------------------
"The Gun from Down Under !"
El Chimango Pete
New member
...and (to resucitate an old controversy) keep in mind that if the rounds had been 45's instead of 9mm the action could have been over (whatever the merits) with fewer rounds, and perhaps even without the death - if the suspect had been stopped and dropped at the outset? (I confess i have no other information on the incident - but as an instructor here I have argued against the use of the military 9mm in civilian situations)