New TX rights group: Lone Star Citizens Defense League

You're correct; so no, I don't have any statistics. Looks like I stepped on it with that statement.
My advice may sound a bit harsh, but it's not meant as such.

You guys are placing yourselves in the spotlight. You don't get to "step on it." If you don't have hard facts, or if your arguments have the slightest holes, those who oppose you will pounce on them.

For example, this statement could be taken vastly out of context:

the unfortunate increase in crime should also prove helpful.
Preparation and the perception of competence are your bread and butter. If you show up to a debate unprepared, you could end up doing as much harm as good. You won't have a chance to learn on the fly.

In a way, it's better for you to make those first mistakes here, rather than the public arena, but it sounds as if you've still got a way to go.

You need to be specific as to:

  • What laws you plan to change,
  • why they need to be changed,
  • how you plan on convincing people they need to be changed,
  • who you plan on approaching to change them,
  • what venue (the legislature or the courts) you plan to pursue this in,
  • how much you have in resources to do so,
  • how you plan to raise those resources, and
  • how you plan to use those resources.

Furthermore, I'd like to know how you plan on working with other groups, especially the NRA.

You're going to be running a business: you're taking money to perform a service, and as such, you need someone to run the books and such. Are you going to be a 501(c)(3), and if so, do you know what the limits are regarding that?
 
A couple of comments here....with the note that I am not a member of LSCDL, but likely will be in the future (clarification). I am a TSRA member as well as an NRA member (3rd generation). Again, clarification.

I've spoken with the 3 primary officers from the LSCDL group both via email and by phone. The first thing that all 3 will tell you is that they're NOT political animals, nor writers, etc. - they're simply trying to put something together to accomplish a goal.

Might I suggest that rather than slamming the messenger, a greater good would be served by (constructive) criticism? I've found them to be extremely open to that, and often surprised by the way some comments can be misconstrued. Having worked in politics in the past (certainly NOT on a professional or direct level), I'm a bit more aware of how things can be twisted about, as many of you have shown. Now, maybe you meant it helpfully, but some of 'em look somewhat antagonistic in nature.

I do know that they have no interest in endangering ongoing legislative efforts to improve the 2nd Amendment efforts already underway in Texas. Like many others, they think of something, they move on it - not understanding some of the groundwork and other considerations that are involved.

I've spoken to this on the Texas CHL board, as well - and anticipate that they'll be speaking w/Charles Cotton in the near future to sooth over any issues/problems and find a "common ground" from which both can work.
 
TexasRedneck:...Might I suggest that rather than slamming the messenger...

Who did that?

I suppose we should just join or contribute $$$$ to any organization that purports to be "on our side"?

I guess you joined the American Shooters and Hunters Association without doing your due diligence?

I get emails and direct mails every week from NRA, TSRA, GOA, etc. Some do great things (NRA & TSRA), some say they fight for our rights but have nothing to show for it (GOA) and some are shills for the Brady's (ASHA).
Before I give $$$ to anyone who is a first time poster on this forum I want to know a little more than you.

Sorry, no one slammed the messenger. You are out of line.
 
Who did that?

I suppose we should just join or contribute $$$$ to any organization that purports to be "on our side"?

I guess you joined the American Shooters and Hunters Association without doing your due diligence?

Sorry, but I think you read more into my message than intended.

Please go back and look at it again. I didn't say any of the comments were wrong, what I *did* mean was that the tone of the comments were, IMO, a bit aggessive.

Maybe because I've actually spoken with them I have a better "feel" for what they're about, but as I said - they aren't perfect, but have an idea and an objective. I guess my point is that rather than simply attack what they've written (in my view), suggest/recommend to them ways of wording things differently, asking for clarification on comments, etc. Y'see, when I do "due diligence" I tend to dig pretty deep.:D
 
We've received valuable input from many sources recently, some of which has come from here. I thank you for the constructive comments.

Because of this, we've made a few changes to our site.
 
Cliff, thank you for posting that. I had heard it might get introduced this session, and am glad it did, but I'm a bit skeptical about its chances - it strikes me that it may well have been sent to that committee to die. This bill will face extremely stiff opposition from Dallas, Harris and Travis counties, you can be certain of that.
 
Yeah....well it might have a better chance if TSRA would get off their duffs and support it - but since they don't "like" the bill, that ain't gonna happen.
 
IIRC, the TSRA feels that there is significant opposition to open carry and pushing it at the same time as campus carry and the parking bill could sink both as part of an entire package.

With no offense, those two are way more practically important for SD than open carry.

Those bills may sink anyway as conservative legislator kiss up to big business as does the governor. They will get killed in the house with the calendar. Thus, everyone can proclaim their support but the bills don't get passed again!

Perry deliberately didn't put the bills on the emergency agenda (as he did with other social issues that business doesn't care about).
 
TSRA isn't pushing this bill for 2 reasons.

1. There are other bills that they are putting their effort behind and there's only so much they can do. Although they do a lot with what they have, the membership of the TSRA is very small--only about 40,000 members--which limits their resources considerably.

2. According to the TSRA Legislative Director their research indicates that there isn't enough support for open carry amongst the TSRA membership in specific and TX gun owners in general to warrant a major effort on the part of the TSRA to push this bill.
 
Well.....I am a TSRA member, and have asked specifically about support for OC legislation. I was told that same line - but when I asked who did the polling, that there hadn't been any. How can you speak for/to the wishes of membership when they haven't been asked??? It's not on the personal agenda of key staff members - THAT is why it ain't on their agenda.
 
This bill will face extremely stiff opposition from Dallas, Harris and Travis counties, you can be certain of that.

Undoubtedly.

Word has it that this bill will be well received in committee. Where it goes after that is anyone's guess.

While I was a TSRA member I asked the same questions about polling as Texas Redneck. The answer was that polling the membership is too expensive and/or unreliable. The TSRA's positition was (is?) that the members weren't contacting them asking the TSRA to back open carry, so the members didn't want open carry. This is in no way to be interpreted as a negative comment on TSRA, they do great work; it's simply the way they answered the question.

Communication with the organization representing you is important. That includes Representatives and Senators, both State and Federal.
 
With no offense, those two are way more practically important for SD than open carry.
With no offense right back atcha, I couldn't disagree more. Campus carry affects a much smaller number of Texans than does open carry. I don't know if you're a Texas resident or not, Glenn, but it gets pretty darn hot most months of the year in Texas. And having to ALWAYS carry concealed, under penalty of jail time for even a brief moment of non-concealment, isn't the easiest thing in the world when it's a typical 95/90 heat/humidity day and a jacket and long pants looks just a bit out of place when everyone else is wearing t-shirts and shorts.

I don't know anything about TSRA, its agenda, or anything else, but they can't claim to speak on behalf of ALL Texas gun owners, CHL's or anything else. They sure don't speak for me on this issue.
 
How can you speak for/to the wishes of membership when they haven't been asked???
You don't always have to actively poll to do research, you just have to keep track of things that you're asked to do.

How do they know that campus carry and the parking lot bills are supported by the membership without asking? Obviously the members who are motivated make their wishes known. That's how TSRA knows what the members care about and what they don't care about.
It's not on the personal agenda of key staff members - THAT is why it ain't on their agenda.
No, that is purely speculation on your part and it's not even good speculation. The TSRA works towards the ends that their members support because that's how they keep the members they have and that's how they get their funding. If they stop representing their membership then they will lose membership and funding and will cease to be effective.

The idea that a membership funded organization would ignore the wishes of its membership doesn't make sense.
Well.....I am a TSRA member, and have asked specifically about support for OC legislation.
I can't really understand if you're being humorous or sarcastic or if you honestly believe that the statement of a single TSRA member must be representative of the views of the entire membership.

If the TSRA membership supported open carry then TSRA would push it. They exist to further the goals of their membership and for no other reason.

I told you why the TSRA is not pushing open carry legislation.
Glenn told you why the TSRA is not pushing open carry legislation.
The TSRA told you why the TSRA is not pushing open carry legislation.

I guess you're going to believe what you want, but I've got to say that your arguments aren't logical and they directly contradict the information you've gotten straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
With no offense right back atcha, I couldn't disagree more. Campus carry affects a much smaller number of Texans than does open carry.
That is almost certainly incorrect--at the very least it is based on an unjustified assumption.

A little bit of research on your part would reveal that a very tiny fraction of the gun-owning population open carries even in areas where it is legal while a much larger percentage conceal carries.

Open carry has the POTENTIAL to affect more people than campus carry but that doesn't mean it actually will unless more people will open carry than will conceal carry on campuses. And that seems very unlikely if we look at how uncommon open carry is even in areas where it's legal.

The reason there's not much support for open carry in TX is because most people who want to carry handguns in TX aren't interested in carrying openly. It's hard to generate support for a law that allows people to do something they don't really care about doing especially when it's clear that passing such a law would be difficult to accomplish.

Even on the gun forums, where you find a MUCH higher concentration of enthusiasts and gun rights supporter than in the general population, open carry is still controversial. Why then, is it so hard to understand that it's tremendously more controversial in the general population? The only way one could manage such a feat of anti-logic is by intentionally ignoring every bit of relevant information except that which supports their personal view.
 
Well, I've looked out the window and seen TX for about 1/3 of my long life and concealed in the heat with a little common sense.

If anything not carrying because you can't figure out how to conceal in TX is not impressive problem solving.

One can easily wear a t-shirt and cargo shorts for pocket carry or belt carry with a light weight shirt (see Bass Pro, Academic or Cabela's for big old floppy light weight shirts - Magellan for instance) that go over the tee. Common garb among the folks I know.

Campus carry is specifically important to give us the ability to defend against high intensity critical incidents. Parking lot carry affects the millions of folks who are disarmed when having to go to work at a location that will fire you and leaving unarmed back and forth during the commute.

That working population probably far outnumbers the few who want to open carry.

Not having open carry doesn't stop carry. The argument on temperature doesn't hold the same power as banning guns in cars at work.
 
Well, I've looked out the window and seen TX for about 1/3 of my long life and concealed in the heat with a little common sense.

If anything not carrying because you can't figure out how to conceal in TX is not impressive problem solving.

Okay...it's 100 degrees and you're working on a ranch. You're going into town to pick something up. You're pretty sweaty and dirty....where you goin' to hide the gun?


One can easily wear a t-shirt and cargo shorts for pocket carry or belt carry with a light weight shirt (see Bass Pro, Academic or Cabela's for big old floppy light weight shirts - Magellan for instance) that go over the tee. Common garb among the folks I know.

Breezy day....hot, but breezy. That shirt is as likely to flop around a bit. Accidental exposure, but what's the big deal about simply having it on your hip? And you ain't gonna catch me in shorts if I'm out in a pasture, or working in a brush area.


Campus carry is specifically important to give us the ability to defend against high intensity critical incidents. Parking lot carry affects the millions of folks who are disarmed when having to go to work at a location that will fire you and leaving unarmed back and forth during the commute.

Using analogy along your same lines...I don't go to college, so why do I care? I care because it infringes on anothers' right to have defensive options. Care enough to acknowledge that it and parking lot possession take priority over my desire for open carry....but don't replace it. Is it so hard for you to have the same willingness to support those wishing for OC?


That working population probably far outnumbers the few who want to open carry.

Whether it's 5 or 50,000 - why should the number of folks wishing for it have bearing on whether something is worth fighting for? Higher priorities, perhaps - but not a basis for support/non support.


Not having open carry doesn't stop carry. The argument on temperature doesn't hold the same power as banning guns in cars at work.

I beg to differ....to me, it DOES have the same "power" - perhaps not the same priority at this time and place to some - but why do the desires of one group have to negate the desires of another?
 
Using analogy along your same lines...I don't go to college, so why do I care? I care because it infringes on anothers' right to have defensive options. Care enough to acknowledge that it and parking lot possession take priority over my desire for open carry....but don't replace it. Is it so hard for you to have the same willingness to support those wishing for OC?
Ok, this explains a lot.

You are incorrectly equating the prioritization of goals with lack of support.

The TSRA supports OC and so do I. But at the moment neither I nor the TSRA is pushing OC legislation because there are higher priorities. The other goals are higher priority because at the moment they enjoy a much larger base of support and therefore it is much more likely that it will be possible to achieve something constructive by pushing those goals.

I support a lot of expansions of gun rights that I'm not actively working to push at the moment and I think it's obvious that the TSRA has to operate the same way. Unlimited resources and time would mean I could put all my effort behind everything I think is a good idea and still get things done. Practical considerations mean that I can only concentrate on one or two (or at best a few) things at once if I want anything to actually get done.

It's that way for anyone or any organization with limited resources--in other words it's that way for everyone and every organization. It's impossible for an organization to do everything at once--things have to be prioritized.

The path to legalized handgun carry in TX has come a LONG way since the initial CHL bill was initially proposed. It definitely took more than one try to get it passed and even then it was initially pretty restrictive. But nearly every legislative session since it passed there has been an expansion on the rights of CHL holders or a relaxation of the handgun laws in TX.

Before 1995 you couldn't carry a handgun in TX without fear of being arrested except in very limited situations. Now you can carry with a shall-issue CHL and if you're in your own vehicle you don't even need a CHL. This year it looks like campus carry will be legalized and employers won't be able to fire their employees for having a legal handgun in their locked vehicles.

The next legislative session after the CHL bill passed, there would have been zero popular support for a campus carry bill, but times change. Right now there's very little popular support for OC in TX but times will change as gun rights continue to be expanded.

EFFECTIVE strategy means you put your efforts behind a task that can be accomplished with the resources and support available to you.

The TSRA is VERY good at forming and implementing effective strategy. Just because they didn't push for campus carry the next legislative session after the CHL bill was passed, OBVIOUSLY didn't mean they didn't support it. It only meant that they realized it wouldn't be an effective use of their limited resources AT THAT TIME.

But someone could have made a comment back in 1997 that the TSRA wasn't supporting campus carry because "it's not on the personal agenda of key staff members." Events would have played out to prove that person wrong, but at the time he would probably have felt very justified in taking such a view.

As restrictions are gradually lifted, more people see the benefits and, more importantly, they see the lack of a downside to the loosening of gun control. As the laws relax and more people find it possible to carry guns for self-defense in more and more situations and circumstances, the support for further relaxation of TX gun laws will grow as it has over the last 2 decades. But it's a slow process. Some of these laws (e.g. employer parking lot bill) have been proposed every legislative session for the last 2 or 3 sessions without being passed. It has taken a lot of effort over the last 4-6 years (or over the past 20 years depending on how you look at it) to get where we are in terms of getting these bills close to passing and it couldn't have been done if the gun rights support base in TX were trying to divide its resources too thinly in an effort to try to push too many things at once.
Whether it's 5 or 50,000 - why should the number of folks wishing for it have bearing on whether something is worth fighting for? Higher priorities, perhaps - but not a basis for support/non support.
Again, you're mixing levels. Nobody is saying that it's not a worthy goal. It's not worth fighting for at this time ONLY in the sense that it would be a waste of resources to push it at this time given that there's no popular support for it at this time.

The bottom line is that you MUST have popular support to pass legislation. If a measure doesn't have sufficient support among the voters to motivate legislators to action then it's a waste of time time and resources to push it when you could be pushing something else that has sufficient support that it can be passed.
 
Well said. I have no objection to open carry. However, as stated before, the practical view is what convinced me in the legislative agenda. Thus, the support numbers count in the real world.

Also, if you are on private land - you can open carry. I have when on private ranches in TX. If on a job, then it is up to your boss to decide if you can carry at all.

As far as shorts - that was a reply to another poster. In the brush - then with cargo long pants, if on public land, you could pocket carry. A G27 should cover most TX encounters.
 
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