New To Reloading - load data question
- Thread starter snayl135
- Start date
Gentlemen........
New guy here. I read every word and I learn something from every post. I do appreciate the experience and candor on this website.
I have six data manuals on my shelf and I try to use them all for each caliber I set up. I am currently researching a 9mm load, and I take all information that I can find seriously.
What I need now is time. Time to shoot, time to read, time to listen. And time to write it all down.
Thank You.
New guy here. I read every word and I learn something from every post. I do appreciate the experience and candor on this website.
I have six data manuals on my shelf and I try to use them all for each caliber I set up. I am currently researching a 9mm load, and I take all information that I can find seriously.
What I need now is time. Time to shoot, time to read, time to listen. And time to write it all down.
Thank You.
>On: June 28, 2017 07:22 PM
>*Who says? The only difference is that if one is thick plate. Other than that, same load data. *
>Noylj I suggest you go to Western/Accurate website and see for yourself!!! And I believe I'd believe them before you.
God, I hope you believe them before me. I hope you believe them before ANY ONE on the net.
I went, I looked, I couldn't find what you are talking about.
Hollow base: the extra length the bullet is taken care of with the hollow base and I have NEVER seen load data that was ONLY for hollow base bullets. They have always been thrown in with all the other lead or copper/lead bullets of the same weight and construction.
Please post whatever it is you're writing about.
Is this something like don't use jacketed data for lead bullets because jacketed start load are often higher than lead bullet start loads, and you could have problems, or something like "don't use lead bullet data for jacketed bullets because the load might be too low to cycle the gun" but it isn't a SAFETY issue, per se?
ALL plated bullets, up until your post, have fallen under:
Use lead bullet data or use jacketed data from start to mid-range, and there have always been those who push things, but I have NEVER seen any warning about not using lead data for a hollow-base plated bullet or whatever your concern is.
You could even go into fits using a Lyman manual where one 124gn lead bullet will have start and max of 3.5/4.6 and another 124gn lead bullet (with longer bearing surface or such) will have start and max of 3.7/4.8gn and you could argue that "see, they have different load data." I would still shake my head.
So, please, post the Western data that would show such a difference in load data between the two plated bullets that one could be unsafe by going with the lower start load and working up.
My point is to start LOW and work up and not make any assumptions, guesses, extrapolation, or interpolations, realizing that your gun and your components will react together differently then the mix used by the test lab. If this wasn't true, there would be ONE manual and all loads would be etched in stone.
I don't see where that is worth arguing about.
If you don't understand what working up a load means, as a general rule, you have a START load (that is often only a 10-12% reduction from the max load) and a MAX load.
You start at the start load and work up in small increments watching accuracy, feeding reliability, recoil force, and any pressure signs. You can stop wherever you want, even at the start load, if that load meets whatever your needs are.
This way, you can find where you gun/powder/bullet is most accurate. Your gun, with your lot of powder and your bullet, cases and primers, will NOT produce the exact same pressure and the test gun with its mix of components. You can't look in manual and say: that load gave 1025 fps so I'll load that--you have to work up to it and, if velocity is your aim, get a chronograph.
As BZimm has noted, if you have 9 manuals, you have 9 very different mixes off guns and components and each can have loading data very different from the other eight, yet ALL are absolutely correct for THEIR mix of components tested--you just have no idea which is closest to YOUR mix of components, if any. For this reason, I start at the lowest start load and work up.
The critical thing to be concerned about today is to NOT confuse load data for frangible or monolithic bullets with any standard lead-core bullet. In fact, I wold almost recommend you draw a line through any load data for those types of bullets so you don't accidentally use that data with regular bullets (and don't use regular bullet data for those specialty bullets). Never, ever, mix up load data for those very specialist bullets.
>*Who says? The only difference is that if one is thick plate. Other than that, same load data. *
>Noylj I suggest you go to Western/Accurate website and see for yourself!!! And I believe I'd believe them before you.
God, I hope you believe them before me. I hope you believe them before ANY ONE on the net.
I went, I looked, I couldn't find what you are talking about.
Hollow base: the extra length the bullet is taken care of with the hollow base and I have NEVER seen load data that was ONLY for hollow base bullets. They have always been thrown in with all the other lead or copper/lead bullets of the same weight and construction.
Please post whatever it is you're writing about.
Is this something like don't use jacketed data for lead bullets because jacketed start load are often higher than lead bullet start loads, and you could have problems, or something like "don't use lead bullet data for jacketed bullets because the load might be too low to cycle the gun" but it isn't a SAFETY issue, per se?
ALL plated bullets, up until your post, have fallen under:
Use lead bullet data or use jacketed data from start to mid-range, and there have always been those who push things, but I have NEVER seen any warning about not using lead data for a hollow-base plated bullet or whatever your concern is.
You could even go into fits using a Lyman manual where one 124gn lead bullet will have start and max of 3.5/4.6 and another 124gn lead bullet (with longer bearing surface or such) will have start and max of 3.7/4.8gn and you could argue that "see, they have different load data." I would still shake my head.
So, please, post the Western data that would show such a difference in load data between the two plated bullets that one could be unsafe by going with the lower start load and working up.
My point is to start LOW and work up and not make any assumptions, guesses, extrapolation, or interpolations, realizing that your gun and your components will react together differently then the mix used by the test lab. If this wasn't true, there would be ONE manual and all loads would be etched in stone.
I don't see where that is worth arguing about.
If you don't understand what working up a load means, as a general rule, you have a START load (that is often only a 10-12% reduction from the max load) and a MAX load.
You start at the start load and work up in small increments watching accuracy, feeding reliability, recoil force, and any pressure signs. You can stop wherever you want, even at the start load, if that load meets whatever your needs are.
This way, you can find where you gun/powder/bullet is most accurate. Your gun, with your lot of powder and your bullet, cases and primers, will NOT produce the exact same pressure and the test gun with its mix of components. You can't look in manual and say: that load gave 1025 fps so I'll load that--you have to work up to it and, if velocity is your aim, get a chronograph.
As BZimm has noted, if you have 9 manuals, you have 9 very different mixes off guns and components and each can have loading data very different from the other eight, yet ALL are absolutely correct for THEIR mix of components tested--you just have no idea which is closest to YOUR mix of components, if any. For this reason, I start at the lowest start load and work up.
The critical thing to be concerned about today is to NOT confuse load data for frangible or monolithic bullets with any standard lead-core bullet. In fact, I wold almost recommend you draw a line through any load data for those types of bullets so you don't accidentally use that data with regular bullets (and don't use regular bullet data for those specialty bullets). Never, ever, mix up load data for those very specialist bullets.
I went, I looked, I couldn't find what you are talking about.
Please post whatever it is you're writing about.
Western website page 7, 9mm Luger;
Accurate #2
124gr Berry HBFP, 3.7gr @ 940fps - 4.1gr @ 999fps
124gr Berry RN, 4.0gr @ 962fps - 4.4gr @ 1042fps
Page 8
Accurate #5
124gr HBFP, 4.9gr @ 929fps - 5.8gr @ 1069fps
124gr RN 5.4gr @ 956fps - 6.4gr @ 1116fps
Accurate #7
124gr HBFP 5.9 @ 929fps - 6.9gr @ 1072fps
124gr RN 6.5gr @ 966fps - 7.6gr @ 1120fps
You can even go and look at the Rainier 124gr bullets listed and even those have different charge data. I can also find the same on this site for the S&W 40 and the 45 ACP.
So to make a blanket statement that they are the same just isn't true.
Please post whatever it is you're writing about.
Western website page 7, 9mm Luger;
Accurate #2
124gr Berry HBFP, 3.7gr @ 940fps - 4.1gr @ 999fps
124gr Berry RN, 4.0gr @ 962fps - 4.4gr @ 1042fps
Page 8
Accurate #5
124gr HBFP, 4.9gr @ 929fps - 5.8gr @ 1069fps
124gr RN 5.4gr @ 956fps - 6.4gr @ 1116fps
Accurate #7
124gr HBFP 5.9 @ 929fps - 6.9gr @ 1072fps
124gr RN 6.5gr @ 966fps - 7.6gr @ 1120fps
You can even go and look at the Rainier 124gr bullets listed and even those have different charge data. I can also find the same on this site for the S&W 40 and the 45 ACP.
So to make a blanket statement that they are the same just isn't true.
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unclenick said:
Ok, I did not mean to start any arguments here. I appreciate all comments and trying to soak it all in.
So, lessons learned here - I need to look at multiple sources, gather the most up to date information as possible including manuals, and data from the manufacturers themselves.
I am starting to see all the variables between bullet weight, powder density/quickness, bullet seating, crimping and COL. As well as the particular unique characteristics of my chamber.
Soooo, I am restarting my load - using the lead bullet RN recommendations from Berry's. Both Lee and Hogdon recommend a starting load at 4.9gr for 115gr plated bullet with CFE Pistol.
I made a batch last night, cleaned the cases, inspected them for defects. Went through each stage of the process slowly, re-reading the loading handbook, instructions specific to my dies, and re-reading the load data.
I inspected each and every primer seating, weighed out and verified every 5th powder charge to verify accuracy and comparing with the useful volume in the handbook. I weighed multiple bullets from the manufacturer to ensure I have the correct bullet weight. During seating and crimping, I measured the COL of every 5th round to ensure it was above the minimum OAL used in the load data and did not exceed the COL in Lee's diagram. I compared that to a factory round. I did the PLUNK test on multiple rounds in my batch.
I also weighed each and every completed round to ensure that the total weight of all components were consistent.
The batch was labeled and the recipe I used was placed in my log book.
So at this point, I cant think of anything else to add for safety unless anyone else sees I may have missed something.
So, lessons learned here - I need to look at multiple sources, gather the most up to date information as possible including manuals, and data from the manufacturers themselves.
I am starting to see all the variables between bullet weight, powder density/quickness, bullet seating, crimping and COL. As well as the particular unique characteristics of my chamber.
Soooo, I am restarting my load - using the lead bullet RN recommendations from Berry's. Both Lee and Hogdon recommend a starting load at 4.9gr for 115gr plated bullet with CFE Pistol.
I made a batch last night, cleaned the cases, inspected them for defects. Went through each stage of the process slowly, re-reading the loading handbook, instructions specific to my dies, and re-reading the load data.
I inspected each and every primer seating, weighed out and verified every 5th powder charge to verify accuracy and comparing with the useful volume in the handbook. I weighed multiple bullets from the manufacturer to ensure I have the correct bullet weight. During seating and crimping, I measured the COL of every 5th round to ensure it was above the minimum OAL used in the load data and did not exceed the COL in Lee's diagram. I compared that to a factory round. I did the PLUNK test on multiple rounds in my batch.
I also weighed each and every completed round to ensure that the total weight of all components were consistent.
The batch was labeled and the recipe I used was placed in my log book.
So at this point, I cant think of anything else to add for safety unless anyone else sees I may have missed something.
snayl135, This is what I went thru when I started loading 9mm and using plated bullets. Which I'm loading exclusively.
There was not much printed load data around for plated bullets. None of the plated manufacturers had any published data as this reduced their liability in the event something went wrong. So one had to rely on the powder manufacturers or other 3rd parties. None of which was consistent. There was also much discrepancy among data as to COAL. In my case Barry's listed one and Hodgdon listed another.
When I started I was using Berry's 124gr RN flat base and Hodgdon HP-38 powder. So of course I went to Hodgdon's website to find load data to use. They have only one load listed for the 124gr bullet and that is with the Berry's 124ge HBFNTP bullet. After many years of loading lead Hollow base wadcutters for revolvers I knew there was a difference between hollow base and flat base bullets of the same weight.
Real life experience now. I loaded 10 rounds of the flat base Berry's bullets at what Hodgdon stated as a starting point for the Hollow base. I then shot these. They all fired and cycled the gun accept they did not have enough power to lock the slide back on the final round in 2 different guns. I had to go up 0.2 tenths from 3.9gr to 4.1 gr. before they would cycle and lock the slides back.
I then tried this with the Berry's 124gr Hollow base with the same starting load and all fired and cycled just as they were supposed to in both guns.
So no matter what anybody tries to tell me that these are the same I will argue real world experience that they are not.
Many people worry about over charging a case. Well under charging can be just as dangerous and can cause extreme pressure spikes.
Now that I have a working charge range for my loads I am playing with COAL and powder charge to find the most accurate load for my guns using the Berry's plated bullets. Also believe me there is a difference between manufacturers also. If you go to Western Powder website and do a little browsing around you will find this is true. It is published.
I have found that Western/Accurate has the largest published data of plated bullets available on the web which is why I will be switching powders for my plated loads. I don't want to guess!
There was not much printed load data around for plated bullets. None of the plated manufacturers had any published data as this reduced their liability in the event something went wrong. So one had to rely on the powder manufacturers or other 3rd parties. None of which was consistent. There was also much discrepancy among data as to COAL. In my case Barry's listed one and Hodgdon listed another.
When I started I was using Berry's 124gr RN flat base and Hodgdon HP-38 powder. So of course I went to Hodgdon's website to find load data to use. They have only one load listed for the 124gr bullet and that is with the Berry's 124ge HBFNTP bullet. After many years of loading lead Hollow base wadcutters for revolvers I knew there was a difference between hollow base and flat base bullets of the same weight.
Real life experience now. I loaded 10 rounds of the flat base Berry's bullets at what Hodgdon stated as a starting point for the Hollow base. I then shot these. They all fired and cycled the gun accept they did not have enough power to lock the slide back on the final round in 2 different guns. I had to go up 0.2 tenths from 3.9gr to 4.1 gr. before they would cycle and lock the slides back.
I then tried this with the Berry's 124gr Hollow base with the same starting load and all fired and cycled just as they were supposed to in both guns.
So no matter what anybody tries to tell me that these are the same I will argue real world experience that they are not.
Many people worry about over charging a case. Well under charging can be just as dangerous and can cause extreme pressure spikes.
Now that I have a working charge range for my loads I am playing with COAL and powder charge to find the most accurate load for my guns using the Berry's plated bullets. Also believe me there is a difference between manufacturers also. If you go to Western Powder website and do a little browsing around you will find this is true. It is published.
I have found that Western/Accurate has the largest published data of plated bullets available on the web which is why I will be switching powders for my plated loads. I don't want to guess!
jetinteriorguy
New member
I just tried some of the Berry's HB's for the first time a couple months ago. I started out using my normal data as if for a flat base bullet, and immediately noticed some pressure signs even on the start load. Now with plated bullets I normally start at mid range lead data and max out at mid jacketed data, but in this case I should have started at lead start loads. I've been hand loading for over 30 years and have shot well over 10000 of the plated bullets using my method without any surprises, until trying the HB bullets. So, the point being no matter how much experience you have there is always something new to learn and just making basic assumptions can lead to problems. I believe a combination of an increased bearing surface, possible decreased internal volume, and how the HB most likely seals a little tighter in the barrel that all these things add up to higher pressures.