New To Reloading - load data question

S

snayl135

Inactive
Hi all,

Well I jumped into reloading as I thought it would be a great extension of another great new hobby I just got into - shooting ;) Not sure which is more fun - shooting so I can see my handiwork and collect the brass, or reloading the brass so I can shoot ;)

Anyway - I have a single stage Lee press and I am loading 9mm - I have a Remington R51 handgun and HiPoint 9mm carbine - yes Hi point ;) It is great fun to shoot and scary accurate within 50-75yards.

I have Richard Lee's loading handbook and ordered ABC's of Reloading. I had looked at some reload data and was overwhelmed with all the selections of formulas for loads, bullets, powder etc. I went to Cabela's to buy supplies and I bought what was available in powder for 9mm - I bought CFE Pistol. I also bought Berry's Plated Bullets 115gr, (.356), and CCI #500 small pistol primers.

When I got back home and looked over the load data for CFE Pistol - I could not find anything listed for plated bullets. I noticed the charge for 115gr lead bullets starting charge was at 4.9gr with never exceed at 5.4gr. I looked at the data for 124gr jacketed - which had starting charge at 4.9 as well and never exceed at 5.5.

Being really new, and still trying to understand the relationship between powder quickness, density, bullet weight, pressure in the chamber, etc - I decided to extrapolate and use 5.2gr which was in between the starting charge for 115gr and the 5.5 never exceed charge for the 124 jacketed - figuring the plated bullet is a bit heavier than a lead bullet, and less than a jacketed bullet.

Also, I was not sure about crimping. I just did enough to get the bell out/expansion. When to crimp, how much to crimp, etc is still not clear to me.

I made sure my cartridge measurements were between min OAL and maximum listed on the chart in the handbook. I also compared it with a factory cartridge of the same weight and made sure the bullet depth was exactly the same as factory. I tested fitted several completed rounds in the chamber that I was going to be shooting from and it fit nicely - easy to drop in the chamber and the round came out without any hang ups.

So the moment of truth came at the range. I was REALLY nervous since it was my first attempt at reloading and I had to do some extrapolating. It was a great success. Between the handgun and the PCC, 49 out of 50 rounds shot flawlessly. 1 primer failed to fire, so I had waited 30 seconds, then reloaded that round, and it fired without any problem - not sure what the issue was - bad primer?

sooooooooo, my question is how to interpret the load data if I can't find the exact powder/bullet match. Was my extrapolation correct or was I just asking for trouble. I really don't want to blow my hands off, and some pointers would be awesome.

Here is the load I used:

CFE Pistol 5.2gr
Berry's Plated Bullets 9mm Luger (.356) 115gr
CCI #500 Small Pistol Primer

Thanks for any tips. I am still trying to learn what I can to be safe, and using as many sources of information as I can.

Thanks,
snayl135
 
Especially starting out with 9mm's, it sounds like your first venture went well. In selecting the 5.2 gr load, that would be considered a mid-range load between starting and max. Some reloaders start a new cartridge with mid-range loading. But as new to the game, some may slap your hand for not beginning with the low start load and work up from there.

The one primer mis-fire was probably due to a primer not seated all the way into the pocket. It's common for the primer to ignite on the 2nd or 3rd try. Make sure sufficient pressure is applied to fully seat primers.

I assume you are applying a taper crimp rather than a roll. Tighten the taper crimp die to the point where the crimp can be felt during the crimp stage, but not enough to dig into bullet.

Selecting your 5.2 gr load was not exactly by the means of extrapolation. And extrapolation is something that you don't want to do. Here is an explanation. Assume that powder AB is listed as a load with certain bullets but you don't have powder AB but do have powder TB that you would like to use but is not listed. Consulting your powder burning rate chart it shows that powders AB and TB are very close in burning rates. This may then cause someone to assume that powder charges for AB can be substituted for powder TB, not a good idea to say the least. Extrapolation refers to outside the norm rather than within.
 
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First, I would set oal by the "plunk test". Google search it.

Then I would load 4.9, 5.1, 5.3, 5.4 x 10 of each. Shoot a 5 shot group of each. Compare the primers of each load to a factory load.

You want best accuracy with the same or less primer smear that factory. Primer smear is striker drag in the primer cup as the gun cycles.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

I would use the jacketed data as the Speer Gold Dot is a plated bullet. Again, be sure to watch primer smears.
 
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Ok, great advice. I did check Berry's website and Hodgdon and both say to treat plated bullets as lead bullets with regard to load data. Looks like I will need to reduce the charge to start out ;)

snayl135
 
condor bravo's explanation of your primer not igniting explains it.
To elaborate, the first strike probably finished seating it and the next strike ignited it.
It's easy to spot an unseated primer in your reloads.
Just place the rounds on a flat surface to see if they are flush with the bottom of the case.
Those not seated fully will cause the ammo to rock instead of laying flat.
 
One more note, when choosing compatible components, start with the load data charts.
Then you will be assured of getting the ones meant to work together without trying to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.
Just a thought.
 
Snayl35 said:
I decided to extrapolate and use 5.2gr which was in between the starting charge for 115gr and the 5.5 never exceed charge for the 124 jacketed - figuring the plated bullet is a bit heavier than a lead bullet, and less than a jacketed bullet.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum.

Alas, none of the above is correct. Going backward, a 115 grain bullet is a 115 grain bullet, regardless of what it is made from, so the weight is the same. What is different is your plated bullet is less dense than a pure lead one. This is because lead has a density of 11.34 grams/cc, while copper has a density of 8.96 grams/cc. So a bullet made from a combination of these two will have more volume than a pure lead version does. If the noses (ogive and tip) forms are the same, then the combined material bullet will be longer. So if you seat them to the same COL, the same-nose-profile combined material bullet will set deeper in the case, leaving less room for powder and thereby raising the peak pressure. How much it will be raised can be approximated in an interior ballistics program like QuickLOAD and by several old equations whose application to modern powder formulations is a bit less sound.
…use 5.2gr which was in between the starting charge…
Click to expand...

Actually, there is a reason the starting charge is called the "starting" charge. That's what you are supposed to start with. From there you work up in increments of not more than 2% of the maximum charge weight while watching for pressure signs. I know the advice to go somewhere in the middle is common, and it probably works out 99.9%, but it's the 0.1% where it doesn't work that can bite you. Three times, now, I have encountered examples where the starting load in a manual was already at maximum pressure for the particular gun involved.

So, how could that happen? Aren't all those listed loads tested? Well, they are tested in some gun at some point in time. Some of the data is quite old and not all of it is still valid. If you look at enough load data over time, you will encounter some examples where one source gives a starting load at or above the maximum load listed by another source. Over the years, primer formulations have changed, case capacities have changed, powders have changed manufacturers and formulations have been modified and quality controls have changed (generally improved, but that means old data developed using a poorly controlled old lot of powder can be off), and the material combinations used in making bullets have evolved. M.L. McPherson, using the same components and charge weight in a .270 Winchester pressure test gun got over 30% change in peak pressure just by changing brands and models of 130 grain bullets. In a short pistol case that change could be rather greater. The hardness and lengths of modern designs can be that different.

So, what's a fellow to do? A good piece of advice is always to find load data using the same powder from at least 3 sources and use the smallest starting load in the bunch. You already have the Lee manual. The powder companies all have on-line data or manuals in PDF format that you can download. The bullet companies all have either specific load data or a load recommendation to follow and they will generally email you that information for a specific bullet if it isn't posted on-line, but won't make you purchase their manual to get it for one bullet. They want their customers to have a good experience with their product.

Occasionally the data can be confusing. For example, though their PDF manual spells it out, the on-line data from Alliant lists single loads as "recipes". Only if you download their PDF manual do you learn that each "recipe" is actually the maximum load they measured pressure for, and they expect you to multiply it by 0.9 (10% reduction) to get the starting load. Much data is with different bullets and you will see different COL's because of the different bullet nose forms. If you use a different seating depth or a different amount of bullet jump to the rifling, you can wind up with different pressure, so these differences can sometimes explain why the powder charges don't match between two sources. This is another reason for start loads.

A 10% reduction in charge reduces pressure typically between about 20% and 30%, depending on the powder characteristics. 20% is about how much higher pressure in a high power rifle gets if the bullet is touching the lands rather than having a little jump, and is possibly where the 10% number comes from originally. With short pistol cases, difference in seating depth can affect pressure more than that, so Western Powders recommends multiplying maximum pistol cartridge charges by 0.85 (15% reduction), leaving 0.9 times for rifle. The reasoning is sound. It is that a change in bullet seating depth in a bottleneck rifle case has a much smaller percent effect on the available powder space in the case than the same depth difference does in a short, straight wall (or nearly straight wall) pistol case, so its affect on peak pressure is less dramatic in the rifle case.


FYI:

Extrapolation: You meant interpolation. Extrapolation would be a projection outside the upper and lower charge limits given. You can tell the two words apart because the prefix 'inter"' means within, while the prefix 'extra' means external or in addition to (the published range). Obviously, interpolation can be done without exceeding the pressure the maximum load would produce, but because peak pressure changes exponentially and not linearly with powder charge, using a charge half way between two others will give you a peak pressure very slightly less than half way between those produced by the minimum and maximum charges. The exponents vary with powder speed. The ratio of the new charge to the starting charge raised to a power of 1.7 is a common ballpark value for rifle powders, and 2.5 for pistol powders, though the exact amount varies by powder. The bottom line is that you will find a logarithmic curve fit is most accurate.

Good luck and stay safe by starting with starting loads and checking multiple resources!
 
>I bought CFE Pistol. I also bought Berry's Plated Bullets 115gr, (.356), and CCI #500 small pistol primers.

Every reloading manual should have the following recommendation:
Beginners should start their reloading adventure using quality JACKETED bullets and powders that have existed for at least 10 years so load data is not hard to find and the beginner avoids the problems of trying to learn how to reload and, at the same time, how to handle lead, plated, or frangible bullets.

I'm going to sit here and pretend that I have this problem.
1) Do I have data for plated bullets? No. OK, then I don't buy plated bullets
2) Do I have data for CFE Pistol powder? No. OK, then I don't buy plated bullets.
However, I have them, so what do I do?

There have been two rules that have proven to work for several decades:
* You can always use load data for the next heavier bullet that you do have load data for
* Use lead bullet data for plated bullets.
In all cases, following these rules will be safe. They may actually give you beginning loads that won't quite cycle your semi-auto, but they will be safe.

You have Berry's bullets, so, what does Berry's recommend?
Go the Berry's web site and check it out for reloading information.
In the FAQ section is:
"Do you have load data available? COL or OAL?
We do not research or publish the load data. Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use published load data for lead/cast bullets or low to mid-range FMJ data, as long as it is the same weight bullet. Berry's offers our standard plate bullets which can handle velocities up to 1,250 fps and 1,500 fps for our Thick Plate (TP) versions.

For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target."

OK, again, USE LEAD BULLET DATA.

You have a Hodgdon powder. Call Hodgdon and ask for their load recommendation. They want you to use their powder, so they'll give you what data they have.

I check my load data, and I have NO data for 115gn lead bullets and CFE Pistol.
The only data I have is from the Hodgdon site for Gold Dot (thick plated) bullets (5.3 START and 5.9 MAX). If I take that to be equivalent to jacketed data, then, using Berry's recommendation, I would START at 5.3gn and work up to (5.3 + 5.9)/2 = 5.6gn. Well, that is a bit too tight for MY comfort.
OK let's check out heavier bullets. You can ALWAYS use data for the next heavier bullet.
Ahh, I do have 124gn lead bullet data: 4.4 and 4.9gn for start (two sources) and 5.5gn max (both sources).
So, to be safe, since I have no idea how my mix of bullet, lot of powder, cases, primers, and COL will effect things, I will load a few at 5.0, 5.2, 5.4, 5.6, and, if everything else looks fine, I might try 5.8gn—always start at the start load and I prefer to always start at the lowest start load I find. I would rather hand cycle a couple of rounds than AGAIN be surprised that what I thought was a start load was really a max load.
Pressure signs to watch for:
With 9x19, over-pressure often shows primer flattening if using standard primers. This isn't a sure sign, but it is a good sign.
I also like to fire a few factory rounds of the same weight bullet and compare:
Felt recoil (is recoil as harsh or worse than factory? I may be over max)
Where do the cases end up? If my reloads are tossed further away, I suspect I may be at max or over max.

Speaking of COL, before you ever put primers or powder in your press, you should load a couple of inert dummy rounds so you check COL for function and feeding in your gun(s).

PS: What was the Lee data source? My #2 Richard Lee manual is too old for CFE Pistol. Also, note that Lee simply compiled loading data for the manual and there are a lot of "funny" results in it, where the start and max loads are the same and things like that.
 
Just a couple thoughts; I believe you got lucky. Brand new reloader extrapolating data is more often than not disastrous. Powder charges are not linear, they won't preform in a progressive manner as the chamber pressure changes the burn charismatics of the powder. Even an "educated guess" is not recommended. OAL differences can elevate chamber pressures to dangerous levels and should not be guessed at. The amount of space taken up by the bullet in the case changes pressures, often drastically. So, someone was looking over your shoulder when you were "extrapolating" data for powder charges and bullet seating...:D

You may have learned to find a load in your reloading manual(s) before you buy any components (and I would suggest other manuals than just the Lee). Many less headaches and fewer guesses.

I don't recommend plated bullets to new reloaders mainly because of the reasons you noted; lack of easily found information. Load data can be problematic (although the 1K I tried were all loaded with lead data and I have 30+ years of experience) because folks intemperate manufacturer's information differently. Crimping also seems to be a problem with new reloaders as many of the plated bullets are smooth sided, no cannalure/crimp groove.

But, jes an old guy's thoughts...

Go slow, double check everything, and most important, stay safe...
 
Here's a curve ball for all of you.

Berry's also offers 2 different types of bullets in the same weight. A hollow base and a flat base.

Neither one uses the same load data. So how would you all approach this when there is no published data by most of the powder makers for the hollow base bullet?
 
I did find Berry's info to treat plated bullets like lead bullets during my reloading, however, still was uncomfortable since Lee's reloading handbook load data was not specific for plated bullets. I guess I was trying to figure out a safe extrapolation method.

At this point though, I have decided to stay strictly with components in the load data ONLY. NO extrapolation or attempts.
 
Hi. Lee's reloading handbook uses Hodgdon data. Lee tests nothing themselves. That doesn't mean the data is bad or unsafe to use though. It's just not theirs. S'ok. Hodgdon knows about it. Suggest you buy a Lyman manual anyway. It's more versatile than any bullet or powder maker's book. It has more loads using more powders and bullet weights than any bullet or powder maker's book. The reference chapters are good read too. Lotta formulas explaining things. None of which you 'll ever need. Just like all those formulas and equations from high school math class.
"...not specific for plated bullets..." You don't need it. (You don't need bullet maker specific data either. As in you don't need Speer data for a Speer bullet. You need data for jacketed or cast by the bullet weight.) Just use cast bullet data for the same weight.
That 5.2 of CFE Pistol is fine, but you need to work up the load, not just pick one.
What new loaders need to do most is read their manual's (Lee's will do nicely) 'How-to' chapters before doing anything.
"...grams/cc..." That'd be metric. Most Americans don't know a gram from a hole in the ground. Ya'll didn't get it jammed down your throat by a rectal orifice PO'd at Nixon in 1970.
 
I would have done the exact same thing as you did only maybe try half the loads at 5.0 and half at 5.2 to see the difference. I don't understand advice saying 5.2 is bad, but then recommends using a ladder that goes right up to the max charge weight. if 5.2 is bad then going right up to the max can't be good... If we were talking rifle rounds it is much more important to start at or closer to the starting loads. I like mid-range loads or loads right in-between mid-range and starting for pistols.

For the crimp - I'd recommend reading the die manufacturers instructions again and then read it again as you work through the process of setting up the die. some times the first time through is a little overwhelming. As long as the bullets chamber and you aren't crimping so much that it is breaking through the plating you should be fine.

Plated bullets are fine to use and extremely popular. Jacketed are more expensive and lead can be finicky in 9mm. Just stick to lead data or if the data overlaps like it did in your initial case you will be fine.

For OAL I try to find the longest OAL that gives 100% reliability. This includes checking the magazines, the chamber and feeding/functioning at the range. The bullet weight doesn't have as much effect on OAL as the bullet shape does. Round Nose(RN), Flat Point(FP), Jacketed Hollow Point(JHP), Semi-Waddcutter(SWC) could all have the same weight yet end up with different OAL's depending on the shape of the bullet nose(AKA the Ogive).
 
snayl135, welcome to the Firing Line. The heavy plate Berry's is one of the bullets that gets discussed often. There are a lot of different views on how to work up a load for it. To throw another wrench into it the Speer load manual has the same charge for the different types of bullets of the same weight with only a difference in the COAL.

I use the powder mfg data, bullet mfg data if available, and my Hornady and Lyman manuals. The only time I ever pull out the Speer manual is if I have Speer bullets. I use CFE Pistol in my 9mm and 45 and I am very happy with it.

With any new to me bullet I work up a load usually in 1/10 grain increments. I also use a chronograph so I can see how close my speed is to the published data. Once I get to their max FPS with whatever my powder load is I don't go any further. If I have more bullets loaded with higher charges they go into the bin to have the bullets pulled and recycled along with the primed case. The powder goes into my wife's rose garden.

The problem with all published data is that whoever is running the test has a specific primer and bullet. They are also running it on a test bench with a barrel that may be shorter or longer than what you have. Then there is the other differences of your barrel specs against the test barrels specs and atmospheric differences.

I have a 115 gr FMJ round nose concave bottom that is running 1153fps that could go a little faster but it gives me a good pattern. I have a 115 gr Barry's Heavy Plate RN that is 2/10 of a grain less and it is 1168 fps that gives me a good pattern. I have +P rated guns but I do not like to go into that territory and I do not have any signs of overpressure with those loads. I don't shoot much 115gr any more as almost everything I have is 124/125 grain in 9mm.

Again, welcome to the board and the way of reloading where chemistry and physics will test the boundary of good since.
 
Hmmm, the Lee manual that I have is one of the few that lists plated data.

You can download Western(Accurate, Ramshot) Vihtavuori, Alliant powders from the internet.

Speer, Lyman have some data out there as well..

Otherwise, get Quickload, it's a great help.

And always start at start.
 
>Berry's also offers 2 different types of bullets in the same weight. A hollow base and a flat base.

>Neither one uses the same load data.

Who says? The only difference is that if one is thick plate. Other than that, same load data. This does not mean that if test lab A used the flat base bullet and lot xxxyz of powder and R.O.M cases and C.O.B. primers they won't get different results than test lab B, that used the hollow base bullets and lot xxyab of powder and W.P.C cases and R.O.M primers.
Again, start with the lead bullet start load and work the way up for your components, just like every other bullet out there.

Then, we have the OP that doesn't trust what the manufacturer says and decides to interpolate on his own...
 
>I don't understand advice saying 5.2 is bad, but then recommends using a ladder that goes right up to the max charge weight. if 5.2 is bad then going right up to the max can't be good

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
I am sorry if I was unclear.
It isn't that I know 5.2gn is BAD, it is that I know that 5.2gn, as determined, was not a safe choice and tried to show how I have been loading since 1973. You start at the a safe start load and work UP. You don't guess. You don't interpolate or extrapolate. You don't just assume that your buddies load, with his mix of components, is automatically safe for you and your mix of components.

I STILL say a "ladder test" is a specific test used at 300 yards and beyond for rifles as part of the O.C.W. methodology and is not a good term for the normal load work-up as has been done for several hundred years.
 
"Work up" a pistol load is difficult for me to fathom.
What are we to be working up TO?
Soft Federal primers will flatten and crater at below maximum charges. Other brands are hard to "read." Ken Waters measured case expansion even for handguns but I don't have his touch.
What I DO have is a chronograph. My top load is factory equivalent, which can usually be done without exceeding somebody's published load.
 
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