New to reloading - accuracy questions

Additionally, consider the guns you are using and their intended purpose. A 2MOA deer rifle will put venison in your freezer season after season, if YOU do your part. I did just that for decades and know many, many, MANY other people who have, and we, somehow do just fine with rifles that won't go MOA or less.

Its nice, but its not a necessity for big game hunting.

Something else to consider, as much as consistency in the ammo matters, so does consistency in the shooter.

Even if your gun and ammo is up to the task of shooting "one hole groups" if you aren't (or aren't YET) you're unlikely to get them.

One can do all kinds of things to the guns and to the ammo to "improve" accuracy, but before you get too deep into that, ask yourself, seriously, "do I NEED to?"

Sometimes, one has enough accuracy without needing to do anything extra.
I've got a Win Model 70 Varmint, .22-250, late 70s or early 80s production, bone stock. I adjusted the trigger a bit, but no work was done on the gun, I simply used the factory built in adjustments. My gun shoots 55gr SPs into about 1 MOA, usually, 3/4 MOA when I'm having a really good day. It shoots 52/52gr hp "match" bullets into 3/4MOA and I've even gotten a few 1/2MOA groups here and there. Same rifle will only do about 2 MOA shooting the Sierra 63gr semi spitzer "deer" bullet, but that's enough for deer....

I trim my brass to uniform length, and use the same headstamp batches. That's it. I clean, but don't "uniform" the primer pockets. I don't turn the necks, I don't "bump back" the shoulders its all full length resized. Bullets are seated slightly less than standard max COAL.

I know there is rifling in the barrel, and I know it is somewhere ahead of the bullet when I chamber a round, the bullet doesn't hit it. I don't know, or care, how much it actually is. It doesn't matter to me, if the rifle shoots MOA or sometimes a bit less, why worry about it???

AS is, with nothing extra done to the ammo (or the rifle) it shoots as well, or better than I can. And it does what I want done.

If what I wanted done was one bullet size hole in a target, I'd probably do other things and use different rifles.
 
44 AMP said:
Additionally, consider the guns you are using and their intended purpose. A 2MOA deer rifle will put venison in your freezer season after season, if YOU do your part. I did just that for decades and know many, many, MANY other people who have, and we, somehow do just fine with rifles that won't go MOA or less.

Its nice, but its not a necessity for big game hunting.

Something else to consider, as much as consistency in the ammo matters, so does consistency in the shooter.

Even if your gun and ammo is up to the task of shooting "one hole groups" if you aren't (or aren't YET) you're unlikely to get them.

One can do all kinds of things to the guns and to the ammo to "improve" accuracy, but before you get too deep into that, ask yourself, seriously, "do I NEED to?"

Sometimes, one has enough accuracy without needing to do anything extra.
I've got a Win Model 70 Varmint, .22-250, late 70s or early 80s production, bone stock. I adjusted the trigger a bit, but no work was done on the gun, I simply used the factory built in adjustments. My gun shoots 55gr SPs into about 1 MOA, usually, 3/4 MOA when I'm having a really good day. It shoots 52/52gr hp "match" bullets into 3/4MOA and I've even gotten a few 1/2MOA groups here and there. Same rifle will only do about 2 MOA shooting the Sierra 63gr semi spitzer "deer" bullet, but that's enough for deer....

I trim my brass to uniform length, and use the same headstamp batches. That's it. I clean, but don't "uniform" the primer pockets. I don't turn the necks, I don't "bump back" the shoulders its all full length resized. Bullets are seated slightly less than standard max COAL.

I know there is rifling in the barrel, and I know it is somewhere ahead of the bullet when I chamber a round, the bullet doesn't hit it. I don't know, or care, how much it actually is. It doesn't matter to me, if the rifle shoots MOA or sometimes a bit less, why worry about it???

AS is, with nothing extra done to the ammo (or the rifle) it shoots as well, or better than I can. And it does what I want done.

If what I wanted done was one bullet size hole in a target, I'd probably do other things and use different rifles.
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The op wanted to know how to create accurate loads and asked some questions relaiting to COL variances. Im not sure exactly as to how we have arrived at the point where mediocrity is being sold as an acceptable alternative, rather than trying to help the OP with their goal.

I personally believe most guns can benefit from a load tuned specifically to them. To what degree it increases the inherent accuracy of the gun, and the ability of the shooter, in this case, are a moot point.
 
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Shadow9mm said:
A thought experiment. Lets say you want to find the lands. You get your casings with a bullet seated to touch the lands and measure your col, base to tip. You adjust your seating stem to seat the bullet deeper and give yourself a 0.020 jump and load some rounds.
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This is exactly how I do it. It works very well. I don't remember where I read that it's a good process. Maybe the Speer manual from 20+ years ago?

--Wag--
 
Divil, this may help clarify the issue. 44AMP is correct in his definition of "ogive." But, generally speaking, any reference made to the "ogive" is specifically designed to find "a" point on that particular bullet that will engage the rifling of your barrel. You then measure that cartridge from case base to "the ogive" with the comparator and seat that particular bullet anywhere from 0.01" to where ever you find the accuracy improves. It may be as deeply seated as 0.06" - or even 0.130" and factory rounds are likely to be even deeper so they fit all rifles in that caliber. If you use any other bullet in that rifle you need to re-establish this "ogive" position all over again for the "new" bullet.

To get the idea more clearly, get a comparator and just measure different bullets of the same caliber from the base of the bullet to whatever point on the "ogive" stops the measurement. You'll quickly see what we're talking about.

Now, the seating stem of the die may engage the bullet in an entirely different spot on the bullet than the "ogive" you established. But that is inconsequential because when you measure the seated cartridge overall length from case base to "ogive" with the comparator, it IS the measurement that counts. It doesn't really matter where the seating stem strikes the bullet. For example, altho impossible, if you could push the bullet into the case with your finger, if the OAL case base to "ogive" for THAT bullet with comparator is what you previously established, that's the jump to the rifling for THAT bullet.
 
I think I get what you guys are saying now. The consistency of the length does matter, but it matters because of where the bullet engages the rifling. Therefore we don't care where the tip is, we care where the part of the bullet that matches the bore diameter is. Is that it? So if I use the comparator, the bullets can vary in shape a little but they'll all have to travel the same distance to hit the lands. And I don't need to care what that distance is, within reason, I just need a way to make it consistent.
 
divil said:
I think I get what you guys are saying now. The consistency of the length does matter, but it matters because of where the bullet engages the rifling. Therefore we don't care where the tip is, we care where the part of the bullet that matches the bore diameter is. Is that it? So if I use the comparator, the bullets can vary in shape a little but they'll all have to travel the same distance to hit the lands. And I don't need to care what that distance is, within reason, I just need a way to make it consistent.
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Thats about the size of it imho.
 
I just got back from shooting my first ever batch of reloads. They all worked and nothing blew up. They performed identically to the factory rounds I reloaded them from, but it was at a standing range where I couldn't really do serious accuracy testing, so I wasn't expecting to see anything.

They were 55gr .223 fired from a 20" AR-15.

I measured each round from base to tip straight from the seating die, and they were all within 2 or 3 thousandths. I hadn't thought about the ogive thing at that point so I wasn't surprised that they were close. They are Hornady bullets, so I guess that means Hornady is pretty consistent with the bullet length vs where the seating die touches the bullet. But it's good to know the right way to do it in future.
 
Divil said: "I think I get what you guys are saying now. The consistency of the length does matter, but it matters because of where the bullet engages the rifling. Therefore we don't care where the tip is, we care where the part of the bullet that matches the bore diameter is. Is that it? So if I use the comparator, the bullets can vary in shape a little but they'll all have to travel the same distance to hit the lands. And I don't need to care what that distance is, within reason, I just need a way to make it consistent."

You hit the target!!! Now, recognize, if two bullets "vary in shape a little but they'll all have to travel the same distance to the lands" that does NOT assure their accuracy will be equal! That "shape" matters. For example, I have a 6.5 Creedmoor that fires a Hornady 140gr Spire into an acceptable group when seated 0.015" from the rifling. A 140gr Sierra BT will equal that group when seated 0.02" from the rifling. I have a Remington model 700 that shoots a Hornady 140gr SST with accuracy which equals another model 700 that likes nothing but a 150gr Hornady Spire. When you get into reloading, you are entering an arena of constant experimentation. 1 + 1 often does not equal 2. Just don't get frustrated by that.
 
Divil said: "I measured each round from base to tip straight from the seating die, and they were all within 2 or 3 thousandths. I hadn't thought about the ogive thing at that point so I wasn't surprised that they were close. They are Hornady bullets, so I guess that means Hornady is pretty consistent with the bullet length vs where the seating die touches the bullet. But it's good to know the right way to do it in future."

If the bullets are lead-tipped, as opposed to, for example, the Nosler "ballistic tip" or Hornady SST you will find deformation of that lead tip just from magazine manipulation will change the overall base-to-tip measurement, which is why that is not the best way to handload. But it sounds like you are rapidly getting there.
 
There is a point in the reloading process were we do care where the tip of a loaded round is. And, it is earlier in the process than trying to find the most accurate load.

It is something to be aware of when you are working to set up functional ammunition. Cartridge base to bullet tip measurement of the loaded round matters so that your round will fit, and feed from the magazine, and chamber without hitting the rifling.

Max length for the .223 Remington is 2.260".

Rounds of this length, or less should feed and fit in all firearms chambered for that caliber. Rounds longer than that may not. And a round that is long enough for the bullet to jam into the rifling when it is chambered could be dangerous.

once you are past that point, and you know your rounds are not too long, you don't have to worry about the base to bullet tip length, other than as a matter of consistency.

Consistency is one of the biggest factors in accuracy, both in the equipment itself and in the shooter. So, just how consistent (uniform) are your bullets???

You can check this by measuring them, before you load them. Measure them for length BULLET base to bullet tip, and weigh them. Remember they have a range of tolerances (a +/-) possible and still be "in spec". (measure them before loading or before running them through a magazine avoids differences caused by damage to soft lead tips)

With "regular" bullets you will find some that are a few thousandths longer or shorter, and a few grains varying in weight. This happens with "match" bullets as well, and the extra cost is paying for that range of tolerances to be smaller than regular bullets.

How much does this matter? It depends on many things, but primarily what you are hoping to achieve, and what you are using to do it with.

A weight variance of 2-3gr is relatively insignificant if you are shooting a .45-70 where the bullet weights about an ounce (very small percentage of total bullet weight) but can make a big difference in a .223 with its small light bullet, where 2-3gr is a much larger percentage of total bullet weight.

In other words, a variation of half a percent is a different matter than a variation of 5%.

As I've mentioned before, the industry standard use of the word "ogive" is the entire portion of the bullet where it goes from being a bore diameter cylinder and curves/tapers to the tip. At some point on this surface, the bullet will contact the rifling as it moves down the barrel. This point WILL be different for every different bullet type (shape/weight) and can be different with every different barrel the round is used in.

An easy visual example is the wide variety of bullet types that can be found in .30 cal, 150gr weight. Spitzer/spire point, round nose and flat nose, are common, and each different one, including different brands of the same kind, are all slightly different diameters as they taper from the shank to the tip.

What you're looking for, in your search for the best accuracy is consistency of where on the bullet ogive it contacts the rifling, so that you can seat it at the desired depth for uniformity. That portion of the bullet in front of the point on the ogive which contacts the rifling does not matter. It doesn't touch anything. It can be longer or shorter without affecting anything. What matters is the bullets are consistent diameter at the same distance from the bullet base to the point on the ogive that contacts the rifling.

Having that means the bullet base is also in the same consistent place inside the case, and that means your powder space is a consistent volume. All these things work together to create consistent, uniform ammunition, which is essentially step one in your search for best accuracy.

You said you have an AR-15, and here's a point where things might get a little tricksy trying to seat bullets "0.xxx" off the lands. Because unless you're willing to single load rounds, they also have to fit and feed from the magazine. With all the different people making AR barrels these days, you'll have to check what you actually have to see if there will be an issue.
 
I highly doubt that the factory ammo your shooting is at 2.260.

This is where reloading manuals come in handy , They list COLs in the Load data. Load some if you good groups then you can start playing with seating depths.

Or if its really good groups record the OAL and the base to ogive and your done. Seriously many of us on here have chased the rabbit down the hole
 
Divil,

Most of the discussion of seating depth and jump to achieve accuracy applies to loading for bolt action rifles.
If you are shooting an AR using a magazine, the mag limits everything related to seating depth.
My mags limit OAL to 2.270 for plastic mags or 2.273 for my aluminum mags.
With those OAL limits you can pretty much forget worrying about adjusting for jump.
Light bullets have recommended SAAMI OALs of 2.250 and heavy bullets have recommened SAAMI OALs of 2.260 simply because the AR mag is so short.

I have only found one 55 gr .223 bullet that shoots accurately in my ARs - the Berger 55 gr Flat base #22408.
Any FMJs I have tried can't even come close. But Bergers are more expensive.
I also got good results with Sierra 52 HPBT and 53 FB SMKs and Berger 52 gr FB.

You will probably find that your AR will have a preference for a particular bullet weight.
Any bullet lighter than 60 gr will probably fall out of the neck of the brass before it touches the lands on your barrel so considering seating depth is off the table anyway for most light bullets.

Assuming you want to find what is the most accurate, I would recommend that you first experiment with different bullet weights to see what your barrel prefers.
My Les Baer Super Varmint .223 AR prefers 69 grain Sierra SMK or TMKs and Nosler Custom Competition 69s. And it shoots 77 gr bullets almost as accurately.
But the AR mag will require that you seat these long bullets no longer than the mag length will allow to feed. So, I would recommend that you experiment to find out what weight and specific bullets your barrel likes and then concentrate on tuning loads using those bullets for accuracy. Not all bullets of a particular weight will shoot the same, so you need to find what works. Unfortunately, the more expensive target bullets seem to work best for me. Sierra SMKs & TMKs, Nosler CCs, and Hornady ELD-Ms produce the most accurate load for my ARs and my bolt action .223s. They are not cheap, but they produce the best group sizes.

If I want my Les Baer to shoot the most accurately, I single feed 77 gr SMKs and TMKs seated out around 2.350 to 2.358.
Unfortunately, that defeats the function of a semi-automatic rifle like the AR but it produces group sizes that are worth bragging about.
 
I highly doubt that the factory ammo your shooting is at 2.260.
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I highly doubt it, as well. 2.260" is the listed MAX length, and factories ALWAYS load their ammo a little bit less than listed max length.

There is something about the overall listed max length of loaded rounds I forgot to put in earlier posts, mostly because I tend to think "well, everybody knows this" but from reading people posting on our forum, I am reminded that everybody doesn't know this...:eek:

The listed max cartridge length (for .223 its 2.260") is not a length you have to meet. It is a length you should avoid exceeding. It is entirely correct, right, and proper that every round you load, and every factory round you encounter be slightly (at least a couple thousandths, usually, often more) less than the listed max length, or shorter.

I have older manuals which only give the max coal, and I have some newer ones that give different COALs using different bullets (and of course always below the max length). What I've never been really clear on (and the manuals don't explain this, or if they do its not where I can find it, :rolleyes:) is if the loading manual is recommending that length for that bullet, or just reporting that, when loaded to the proper seating depth, that's what the length turned out to be...

Again, I will refer to the example of .30 150gr bullets, RN/FP vs. Spitzer. You can have both with cannelures at exactly the same distance from the bullet base (so completely equal there) and load them both to the cannelure (so equal amount of bullet inside the case) and have two completely different COALs and both are "right". The RN is simply shorter than the pointed bullet overall, so it results in a shorter COAL measurement. Its just the way they are made.
Again, don't worry about trying to load round TO the max coal, just load them to not EXCEED it. Shorter is just fine, so long as it fits, feeds and fires ok in your gun.

I will add that my advice not to exceed the listed max COAL only applies if you intend to use the gun as a repeater. As the previous post (and many others will also tell you) that the loaded round length that results in the very smallest groups may be longer than the listed max length and so won't function in a repeater other than as single loading each round into the chamber.
 
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