New to reloading - accuracy questions

D

divil

New member
I posted a little white back about getting started in reloading. I'm making progress slowly and I have a few questions about what I should be focusing on for making accurate loads.

I was curious about overall length - something I have never paid any attention to before. So I got out various brands of .223/5.56 I have and went to work with a caliper. The first thing I noticed was that the overall length varies a lot from one type to another. For instance, Hornady Steel Match rounds are way shorter than Tula rounds.

But then I decided to take a look at how much variation there was in the overall length in each brand. What I found was a pretty good correlation between consistent length and how well the ammo works for me. The cheap brands varied by 2 or 3 times as much as the good ones. Hornady Steel Match had the least variation, and is the best ammo I've ever tried.

This got me curious, so I started looking at other calibers. I happen to have some Swiss 7.5mm GP11 surplus ammo as well as PPU factory ammo in the same caliber, and also some Swedish Prickskytte 6.5mm surplus ammo, and the PPU stuff in that caliber. The surplus ammo in both of those calibers is famously accurate, and I again found that the lengths were consistent, varying by around .005". The PPU lengths varied by up to 0.16". But I haven't shot enough of these to see if there's a difference in performance.

So all that to get to my questions:

1. Does overall length have a big affect on accuracy, and if so, is it the actual length or the consistency that matters? For instance, if I sort the Tula .223 so that they vary by no more than the Hornady, will they group the same?

2. Assuming consistent powder charge, and a given factory bullet, what else can I control when handloading that effects accuracy in a noticeable way (let's say noticeable at 100 yards or less). And, I mean "control with a basic single stage press setup".

Thanks!
 
Are the bullets in each round you are comparing the same length? If weights are different, odds are lengths are and thus OAL MIGHT be as well
 
Overall Length is a standard Measurement you typically have a maximum . Again thats a standard. Especially in semi autos or machine guns that have magazines.

Saami Recommends .223/556 overall length at 2.260 . Yes it can affect accuracy. More important measurement is base to ogive. the tip of the bullet is never consistent the ogive is more consistent.

Watch Erik Cortina video on you tube about chasing the lands. He goes over more in depth about base to ogive and seating depths.

If your shooting in a bolt gun vs semi auto is different aswell. But First you need ignition SD/ES once this achieved you then work on barrel harmonics ( Seating depth / overall length.

Semi autos in some firearms will be different , its harder to lower es/sd in some because most time you arent loading the case to max capacity with x brand of powder to lower es/sd.

This will be something you dont or will achieve over night. Also record every recipe you create so you dont ever duplicate a load that doesn’t produce what you want

There reason why COLs are listed in reloading manuals
 
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Are the bullets in each round you are comparing the same length? If weights are different, odds are lengths are and thus OAL MIGHT be as well
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I don't know, I'm not pulling the bullets, just measuring the whole thing. I assumed it was a question of seating depth, since if that was done consistently, then the OAL would be consistent even if the bullets were not, right?
 
You can sort your bullets, But if your buying match bullets at 100 yards your not going to noticed a difference. Get you some match brass/ Lapua or Norma and match bullets and start working up a load
 
You can sort your bullets, But if your buying match bullets at 100 yards your not going to noticed a difference. Get you some match brass/ Lapua or Norma and match bullets and start working up a load
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Well I don't know about the bullets, but the Hornady Steel Match factory ammo groups way better at 50 yards than most cheaper brands I tried. A while back I went to Cabelas and bought a box of literally everything they had in .223. This was at a time when there were many to choose from. I went to the range with a huge assortment including russian stuff I got online, and shot groups with all of them, and found big differences.

I don't remember exactly how they each did, but I do remember that wolf and silver bear were not great, Hornady Steel Match was amazing. So I'm curious to know what the difference actually is.
 
Don't make it too complicated. Get a Hornady OAL guage for the calibers you load. Measure the throat and start at .050 off the lands. My own experience before all the fancy stuff was invented was to replicate the OAL in the manuals and found that the best accuracy was never in the maximum loads; however, the 7mmRM was the exception.
 
Thats because the hornady is using a match bullet and is manufactured with better brass and powder.

Tula and silver bear is blasting ammo period
 
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We still dont know if he is using a bolt or semi auto. Lands will not do him any good on a semi auto where he can work his way down from the maximum the magazine allows
 
GeauxTide said:
Don't make it too complicated. Get a Hornady OAL guage for the calibers you load. Measure the throat and start at .050 off the lands. My own experience before all the fancy stuff was invented was to replicate the OAL in the manuals and found that the best accuracy was never in the maximum loads; however, the 7mmRM was the exception.
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I concur with this advice. COAL is only a surrogate for "bullet jump" for one bullet design.

With some experimentation, you will find surprising differences in group sizes as you sample a range of jumps. I have one inherently accurate .308 bolt gun that will double its group sizes with jump differences as small as 10 or 15 thou.

The only thing I differ with is starting at 50 thou. For a new round (or bullet), I'll make some loads with difference powders and chargers and see what seems to be best. Then I'll load some more with jumps of 20, 30 and 40 thou and see what difference appears. Usually, I take the best of that group and load around it with 5 thou jumps. Lot of work, and sometimes in vain, but more often than not it makes a difference.

Edit: I should add that I don't bother seeking ideal jumps for auto rifles. Intuitively I believe that round-to-round chambering variability will trump jump consistency.
 
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RKG said:
I concur with this advice. COAL is only a surrogate for "bullet jump" for one bullet design.

With some experimentation, you will find surprising differences in group sizes as you sample a range of jumps. I have one inherently accurate .308 bolt gun that will double its group sizes with jump differences as small as 10 or 15 thou.

The only thing I differ with is starting at 50 thou. For a new round (or bullet), I'll make some loads with difference powders and chargers and see what seems to be best. Then I'll load some more with jumps of 20, 30 and 40 thou and see what difference appears. Usually, I take the best of that group and load around it with 5 thou jumps. Lot of work, and sometimes in vain, but more often than not it makes a difference.

Edit: I should add that I don't bother seeking ideal jumps for auto rifles. Intuitively I believe that round-to-round chambering variability will trump jump consistency.
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You be surprised if you have adequate neck tension the bullet will not move. I tested in my M1 which is about as violent as an action gets and the the oal didnt change at all. Which is why most Highpower shooters dont crimp in M1 or Ar platforms.
 
I follow the eric cortina method. There are several good bullet depth seating nodes generally. Actuall distance off the lands does not matter. Plus as the barrel wears and the lands get eroded. Your trying to measure a moving point. What your doing with seating depth is adjusting when the bullet leaves the barrel to tune it to the barrels harmonics.

I typically shoot 5 to 7 groups for accuracy. I load at the bullet makers col. Then i adjust each group 0.003 deeper. I have had group sizes cut in half or more using this method.

Lastly, get the hornady bullet comparitor tool. It measures off a point on the ogive. Points in general can be fairly inconsistent. The ogive is generally a much more consistent measuring point.

For 223, max col is generally 2.260. But that is so it fits in the magazine. Going shorter is ok. Going longer can cause problems. I generally seat a few bullets, maybe 10 or so. Then measure them to make sure they are all at max col or shoter. If
i have a couple long ones I seat them a a little more until they are all at or under max. Then use the hornady tool to get my max.

Lastly if you have hornady dies they make an add on micrometer seating stem. If not frankford arsenal makes a universal micrometer bullet seater that is well worth the money.

To officially answer your 2 questions.
1, no many match bullets have inconsistent lengths. Or to be more accurate, inconsistent points.
2. The main factors for accuracy i have found
2a consistent velocity. Work up to max to make sure its safe. Then work back down to find a good sd/es
2b good bullets. Match bullets, or quality hunting bullets. I like hornady match and sierra match kings.
2c consistent brass. For me that means 100rnds with the same head stamp.

Couple questions
What gun?. Bolt/semi and brand.
What kind of accuracy are you hoping to achieve?
 
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Lastly, get the hornady bullet comparitor tool. It measures off the ogive. Points in general can be fairly inconsistent. The ogive is generally a much more consistent measuring point.
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Do what you think best, but I don't think the comparitor tool is something to start with. and, I'm going to beat this horse one more time...

THE OGIVE IS THE ENTIRE SLOPED/CURVED PART OF THE BULLET. From where it reduces diameter from full caliber down to the tip.

Those people who say "measure to the ogive" are measuring to a POINT ON THE OGIVE THAT THEY CHOOSE. Usually this will be the point where the bullet will contact the rifling, but that point will vary with every different design of bullet and every different barrel they go into.

Also, I think the first thing to consider is what rifle you have, and how it is shooting YOUR current reloads.

Industry standard COAL /COL (CARTRIDGE Overall Length) is the recommended max length round (using the normal "standard" bullet design) that will fit and feed from the magazine, and not hit the rifling when it chambers. SOME guns will take rounds slightly longer. A few need rounds slightly shorter. Factory ammo is always loaded slightly shorter than max listed length, in order to work in everything despite slightly varying tolerances.

All the benchrest tips and tricks for chasing the lands and "most accurate" ammo do not work in every gun out there. Some might, with other guns, its more a question of "is it worth the bother"??

That is something you need to figure out for yourself, with what you have, every gun can be different.
 
44 AMP said:
Do what you think best, but I don't think the comparitor tool is something to start with. and, I'm going to beat this horse one more time...

THE OGIVE IS THE ENTIRE SLOPED/CURVED PART OF THE BULLET. From where it reduces diameter from full caliber down to the tip.

Those people who say "measure to the ogive" are measuring to a POINT ON THE OGIVE THAT THEY CHOOSE. Usually this will be the point where the bullet will contact the rifling, but that point will vary with every different design of bullet and every different barrel they go into.

Also, I think the first thing to consider is what rifle you have, and how it is shooting YOUR current reloads.

Industry standard COAL /COL (CARTRIDGE Overall Length) is the recommended max length round (using the normal "standard" bullet design) that will fit and feed from the magazine, and not hit the rifling when it chambers. SOME guns will take rounds slightly longer. A few need rounds slightly shorter. Factory ammo is always loaded slightly shorter than max listed length, in order to work in everything despite slightly varying tolerances.

All the benchrest tips and tricks for chasing the lands and "most accurate" ammo do not work in every gun out there. Some might, with other guns, its more a question of "is it worth the bother"??

That is something you need to figure out for yourself, with what you have, every gun can be different.
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The comparitor contacts a point or portion of the ogive from which the measurement is derived. And the ogive itself regardless of measuring point, is generally a much more consistent place to measure off of than the tip.

I reccomended the tool as the OP was concerned with variances in col and creating precision type ammo. You need a consistent point to measure from to adjust your seating depth. As well as making more of the load later, unless you never plan on adjusting that die again. And thats hard to do if the bullet tips are varying between 0.005 and 0.016 and your trying to adjust a couple thousandth to get your seating depth right. Whereas measuring with the tool might show a variance of 0.000 to 0.001.
 
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The comparitor contacts a point or portion of the ogive from which the measurement is derived. And the ogive itself regardless of measuring point, is generally a much more consistent place to measure off of than the tip.
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Agreed, generally. Now consider this, the comparitor picks a point, on the ogive. That's fine, and a repeatable measurement. BUT, this is also how the seating stem of our dies work, with pointed bullets (rifle type). Some pistol seating stems are made to press on the flat tip of an SWC, but others are made like rifle seating stems, they contact a POINT on the ogive, NOT the bullet tip.

And that point on the ogive the stem contacts isn't going to change or vary unless the bullet does, at that point.

Is this point, where the seating stem contacts your specific bullet the same point the comparator does?? Not being familiar with the comparator, beyond its general principles, I can't say. But, if its not, why bother using the comparator when an established non-varying point already exists??

My point here is that if you want to seat 0.xxx" off the lands, that information exists and can be found and used without spending anything on a comparator.

If I'm incorrect about this, please do explain it to me...and use small words, ok? :rolleyes:
 
44 AMP said:
Agreed, generally. Now consider this, the comparitor picks a point, on the ogive. That's fine, and a repeatable measurement. BUT, this is also how the seating stem of our dies work, with pointed bullets (rifle type). Some pistol seating stems are made to press on the flat tip of an SWC, but others are made like rifle seating stems, they contact a POINT on the ogive, NOT the bullet tip.

And that point on the ogive the stem contacts isn't going to change or vary unless the bullet does, at that point.

Is this point, where the seating stem contacts your specific bullet the same point the comparator does?? Not being familiar with the comparator, beyond its general principles, I can't say. But, if its not, why bother using the comparator when an established non-varying point already exists??

My point here is that if you want to seat 0.xxx" off the lands, that information exists and can be found and used without spending anything on a comparator.

If I'm incorrect about this, please do explain it to me...and use small words, ok? :rolleyes:
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I know my seater stem on my redding competition seater die contacts between the metplat and the ogive and my comparator tool hits the ogive or there of. Point is they contact at different points.

Now when I sorted by ogive and seated and measured again by ogive they were spot on.

For example base to ogive on loaded 30-06 rd for my rifle using 168 smk is 2.717 and not 3.320 Like amp says what your rifle likes
 
44 AMP said:
Agreed, generally. Now consider this, the comparitor picks a point, on the ogive. That's fine, and a repeatable measurement. BUT, this is also how the seating stem of our dies work, with pointed bullets (rifle type). Some pistol seating stems are made to press on the flat tip of an SWC, but others are made like rifle seating stems, they contact a POINT on the ogive, NOT the bullet tip.

And that point on the ogive the stem contacts isn't going to change or vary unless the bullet does, at that point.

Is this point, where the seating stem contacts your specific bullet the same point the comparator does?? Not being familiar with the comparator, beyond its general principles, I can't say. But, if its not, why bother using the comparator when an established non-varying point already exists??

My point here is that if you want to seat 0.xxx" off the lands, that information exists and can be found and used without spending anything on a comparator.

If I'm incorrect about this, please do explain it to me...and use small words, ok? :rolleyes:
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If you measure col or base to tip on a bullet they are inconsistent. Upwards of a es of 0.015 over a few rounds as the op found. However if you measure with the tool, cartridge base or bullet base to a point on the ogive that es may drop to 0.001. It is unlikely the seating stem contacts the same point on the ogive as the comparitor tool, i agree. My understanding is the ogive, yes all of it, is more consistent and uniform than the tip of the bullet.

A thought experiment. Lets say you want to find the lands. You get your casings with a bullet seated to touch the lands and measure your col, base to tip. You adjust your seating stem to seat the bullet deeper and give yourself a 0.020 jump and load some rounds. Then you try some other bullets and do some other stuff. Next year you need 20 more rounds for hunting. You seat another bullet and set the col same as last year from your notes. But this bullet tip is 0.015 shorter than the one you used when finding the lands, and you are now 0.005 off the lands instead of 0.020. A kaboom, not likely, but not impossible. But your group may open up, or have a poi change. And your good load now shoots bad and you have to re-zero your rifle.

In my experience pistol bullets are not quite as sensitive to seating variations as rifle bullets are. So seating off the tip or mouth is significantly less of an issue.
 
Shadow9mm said:
If you measure col or base to tip on a bullet they are inconsistent. Upwards of a es of 0.015 over a few rounds as the op found. However if you measure with the tool, cartridge base or bullet base to a point on the ogive that es may drop to 0.001. It is unlikely the seating stem contacts the same point on the ogive as the comparitor tool, i agree. My understanding is the ogive, yes all of it, is more consistent and uniform than the tip of the bullet.

A thought experiment. Lets say you want to find the lands. You get your casings with a bullet seated to touch the lands and measure your col, base to tip. You adjust your seating stem to seat the bullet deeper and give yourself a 0.020 jump and load some rounds. Then you try some other bullets and do some other stuff. Next year you need 20 more rounds for hunting. You seat another bullet and set the col same as last year from your notes. But this bullet tip is 0.015 shorter than the one you used when finding the lands, and you are now 0.005 off the lands instead of 0.020. A kaboom, not likely, but not impossible. But your group may open up, or have a poi change. And your good load now shoots bad and you have to re-zero your rifle.

In my experience pistol bullets are not quite as sensitive to seating variations as rifle bullets are. So seating off the tip or mouth is significantly less of an issue.
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Shadow is correct
 
To OP,

Remember Consistency is the Key to reloading. Your trying to make each rd exactly the same. Even down to using the same amount of lube on each case to trying to pull the pull lever on your press the same. Its the basic fundamental of reloading.
 
Accuracy comes about as several little things come together .
Using good bullets is important . A powder known to be accurate in others experience .
Testing primers for the most accurate .
Change only one component at a time when testing .
The sigle big improvement to my accuracy was a Custom Trigger Job by Clark Custom Guns . Hitting my target became much easier whith a realy good trigger done by a good gunsmith .
The next biggest tip is you want everything as consistent as possible , once fired mixed headstamp range brass isn't going to get it done . Buy several hundred brand new cases , from the same lot , and reload them in batches of 50 or 100 and keep track of how many times they have been reloaded ,

You get all tangeled up in the search for ultimate accuracy and get sucked down that rabbit hole ... do as much in striving for accuracy as you can but don't let it ruin the Fun Factor !
Gary
 
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