New to long-ish range and want help

M

ManikBastrd

Inactive
Hey guys and gals,
I'm new here to the forum, and also to rifles...A little history:

I am a navy nuclear operator that has been shooting(pistols, rifles and shotguns) for almost 15 years. I am pretty proficient with open sights(expert by navy standards with AR-15). I own a glock 23, .380 bodyguard, a Remington 870 set up for home defense, and an WASR AK-47 set up with a red dot( holographic style ) folding stock and fold down fore grip. I want to get into long range rifles. I am not interested in anything specific like competitions etc, but I would like to chase the 1000yd unicorn. Obviously this will take me years of practice and a decent amount of research and development of loads etc. I have been doing a lot of research and I am only getting more and more excited about rifles. I have been learning everything I can about long range shooting including ballistics(internal and external), windage, load, holdoffs, bullet drop, BC, scopes and rifle selection.

I have selected (not purchased ) a Savage FCP-K in .308 for my rifle(open for advice and recommendations). I want to know what I should be looking at for my first optic setup. From what I have learned, I have determined that I should be looking into a 20MOA rail, good rings, and an optic between 500-1000 dollars. I realize that this is a significant amount of money for a beginner to invest, but I feel that having good equipment will allow me to focus on my technique and not worry as much about my equipment being the limiting factor in my shooting. I do not really hunt (have done some waterfowl before), but am not against having an optic setup that will make that a possibility. From what I have learned, it would be good for me to start off with an optic that is between 12-20X maximum magnification.

I am really open to any advice about how to start off, beginner tips and equipment recommendations. I am not afraid to spend around 2000$ for my rifle and optic setup, but would not like to exceed that by too much.

Any help is greatly appreciated, and I thank you all in advance!
-Manik
 
Hey guys,
I'm not Naive, and I don't want to just walk into the world like I can do anything you can do with enough money haha, I really genuinely need help here and there is a wealth of experience to be had in this forum. I know that with almost 200 people having viewed this thread, someone has to have some advice for me!!!
Sincerely,
Please help!!! :D
 
"I have selected (not purchased ) a Savage FCP-K in .308 for my rifle(open for advice and recommendations). I want to know what I should be looking at for my first optic setup. From what I have learned, I have determined that I should be looking into a 20MOA rail, good rings, and an optic between 500-1000 dollars."


You are on the right track.
 
Thank you thank you Dave! I really appreciate the reply hahaha I was thinking this was a ghost town or I committed some heinous act or travesty to make no one want to help me!
Regards
 
Manik, the rifle you have picked is a very good choice. As far as accessories, look into the 20 MOA rail (like you were thinking) but don't cheap out on it. Some companies make them for $30, but it helps to spend a little more. Nightforce, Badger Ordnance, and EGW for a more budget rail. For an optic, look into Vortex's Viper PST line. They are a first focal plane scope, and I don't know of anyone who doesn't like them. For a good scope under $1k, they are near impossible to beat.

And welcome to TFL!
 
You're on the right track. Good rifle, for sure. Get a decent 20 MOA base, and I second the Vortex PST recommendation, we've seen no trouble with any of them--and a lot of them come through our school and shooting events.

I would not say that it'll take years of practice. A decent 2 or 3 day course in long range shooting will give you the foundation you need. We actually trained a guy only 6 weeks ago and he went on to come in 2nd in our long range match last month--only one shot behind a heck of a good competitor who travels the country shooting these long range matches.

There's a good school up your way... or at least there was... Central Cascade was the name of it, but their website is inop at the moment, so I'm not sure if they're still operating.

Anyway... you're endeavoring to do what in my opinion EVERY able bodied American should learn to do. America needs more riflemen. :)

Dan
 
The Savage is a very good platform,I have a bunch of them. The stock on the FCP is the only negative about the rifle,IMO,and should be upgraded.
I prefer to use Ken Farrell 1pc bases,and Burris Signature Zee rings on all of mine.

Optics are up to you. I prefer the Sightron SIII scopes over the Vortex PST.
The Vortex has more bells/whistles,and offers FFP,but the Sightron has better glass,and tracks better.
The Weaver Tactical series scopes are also very good scopes with excellent glass,and they are FFP.
 
I'd look up the fellows who shoot long range in my area and talk to them first, before purchasing anything,. - I'd take a gander at their rigs too, and watch them shoot.
 
Big Al, Yes I have looked into the reticle type that I want, and was considering a Mil/Mil setup. One of the scopes I have been looking at was in fact the Vortex Viper PST series. I definitely want a FFP setup because as I have learned, you can not do any kind of hold offs or ranging with a SFP setup. I may have these backwards(I hope not) but please correct me if I am wrong. I am leaning towards the mRad setup a bit more than MOA but am more than open to suggestions as well as recommendations.

Txhillbilly, I agree the stock seems like a weak point on the rifle. I was considering an upgrade, however I do think that I should get some trigger time on it before I buy a new stock for it. I was looking at the Choate tactical style stocks as well as the McMillan A-5. Believe me when I say that I am not all about a tacticool setup, I want something that will be functional and have the ability to mount a bipod, sling and possibly a butt hook for a bag or my free hand. I just spent some time looking at the Weaver and Sightron scopes. Weaver seems a bit more expensive (not against it, as long as it is worth it).

PVL, That is good advice. Unfortunately there is not much for 200+ ranges where I live (corvallis OR) however I will definitely look for some guys on the forum that are shooters in my area.

Dan, I appreciate the confidence! I will definitely look into the shooting school you mentioned...Maybe they are in operation but not internet savvy.

One question that is important to me is what do all of you here at TFL recommend as far as magnification for the scope? I was told it is silly to start out with something more than 15x, because the scope will be far better than I am. Would this be something that you guys would agree with? As previously stated, I am looking to invest 500-1000$ into an optic, so I would like it to be something that I can use for a long time.

Thanks again for all the valuable advice!!!
 
Savage FCP-K , I think you may be on to something there :D http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=517846

Seeing how I own one what is the problem with the stock you guys have found to be the issue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N49uIIRnA3w

Accu-stock in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYZJnUyrEQk

I have thought about a new stock and some day I most likely will . For now I can't justify doing so . I can shoot sub 1/2 MOA out to 300yds with the gun being for the most part bone stock . A new stock will I'm sure feel better but not sure if it will help it shoot better .

For real though , if you guys know of any problems with the stock . Please let me know .

Thanks Metal
 
Magnification is a personal thing. Every shooter has their preference. I would recommend a lower power. At least 6x for minimum if you might want to hunt with it. If it is strictly a range gun, whatever tickles your fancy. But high magnification makes it hard to find the target at closer ranges. On a day with mirage you will want 12x or less to see through the mirage. It is nice to bump up to 20x on days that you can. So my best all around would be 6x-20x.

If you get a mil-mil scope in SFP you can range and hold off, but only on 1 power setting, usually the highest. (Yes you have first and second focal plane correct) so it would be better to have FFP for those purposes. However you need to make sure the reticle you choose will subtend less than the bullseye on your target. It is difficult to shoot a good group if you can't see the spot you want to hit because the crosshair makes it disappear.

Mils or MOA is your call. I work with MOA in my career, so it makes the math easier for me. If milradians works better for you, use it.

Sounds like you have done your homework.

And have fun. Go get the gun. Can't shoot it if it's still at the store.
 
Metal, I actually have read your review multiple times before I even joined the forum. Your review solidified me in my choice of the FCP-K. I think it has a lot of great technology going for it and a price point that is very competitive. I also did the research into the accustock technology, and this is one of the reasons I prefer the FCP-k as opposed to the McMillan model. I don't want to bed a stock until I am a much more accomplished shooter. The only things I worry about are the ergonomics since I have not had an opportunity to shoot the rifle.

Big Al, as I stated in the original post, I have never done any rifle based hunting before. I am definitely not against it by any means, but I just don't have any experience with it. I would like to be able to reach out and hit a target at those closer ranges eg. 50-100 yds. I also recognize that the likelihood of an 800yd cold hit (as most shots on a live target are one and done) is very low. As I have been hunting and fishing since I was small, I like the idea of having a scope that can still function at shorter ranges, of course with the added benefit of SHTF scenarios.
As for the FFP vs SFP, all of the things that you mentioned are what makes me weary of both. In a perfect world, my reticle would be thin enough that I could still see the target through the reticle at maximum magnification, while still being able to do hold offs and ranging. Obviously that is going to be very difficult...I know for certain that I don't like the idea of having only one magnification setting where my reticle is accurate for ranging, and although I am very math oriented, I do not want to have to do an extra calculation every time I need to hold off for a shot.

A question that this actually brings to mind is, does a scope with a higher minimum magnification, say a 6-20x, maintain the reticle size better at full zoom as opposed to a 4-20X? Just based on my small physics background and the stuff I have learned about lenses and zoom, I would think that it might. Also, does a better scope have better capabilities for this same scenario where you are at full magnification? what I mean by this is, is a nicer scope going to have a finer reticle so that higher magnification target sighting is not interfered with as much? If anyone knows or has experience I would be very interested to know...For now google will be my tutor haha.
Cheers!
-Manik
 
This is the vortex scope I plan to put on my FCP-K
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product...ffp-riflescope-with-ebr-1-moa-reticle/reticle

Here is the scope in action-ish . @ 2:30 in to the video he shows the sight picture through the scope and a really good view of the reticle .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llGng9YkUJE

I have found that the vortex reticles are pretty fine and with a FFP the reticle stays the same size on the target http://www.vortexoptics.com/uploads/sub_pst_f_6-24x50_ebr1_moa.jpg

If the cross hair is 1/5 MOA at 100yds it will be 2" at 1000yds . At that kind of range you can use the top or bottom of the line for hold over.

As far as magnification . As you can see I like more . Two reasons for this .1) I never plan to hunt with this rifle and 2) like big AL said at higher mag you see the mirage more or for my purpose better . My plan is to dial up the mag to see mirage for estimating wind . You can then take the side focus and focus at different distances all the way to the target . This should give you a good idea as to what the wind is doing in multiple locations between you and the target

Well thats my plan anyways . As Mike Tyson said ( everybodys got a plan till they get punched in the face )
 
A Weaver scope with Micro Track adjustments' has enough quality to aid your rifle and ammo to shoot sub 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards if you and the rifle and its ammo are up to the task. Most folks spend way too much money of scopes. And if you want the best repeatability of the scopes adjustments, get a fixed power. Variables are notorious for having slop in their internal mechanics, especially the ones holding lenses that change magnification. If you must have a variable, set it to maximum or minimum power then don't change it; any setting in between is cause for repeatability problems as there has to be clearance in the metal parts moving the lenses to change magnification.

More important, in my humble opinion, is to ensure the bullets you shoot are the very best available that are at least 3 or 4 ten thousandths inch bigger in diameter than your barrel's groove diameter. If they are not, no scope will help you drive tiny tacks at long range. Slug (or have slugged) your barrel then use a good micrometer to measure the lead slug. Same on bullets.
 
Another vote for the vortex viper pst with Front focal plane. I had bought a bushnell elite tactical 6500 (similar to the vortex Viper pst that i have now) and the illuminated reticle didnt work properly. light from the reticle leaked into the glass clouding my field of view. After returning it twice for repairs the lab repair manager said that's how those scopes are made and it passed spec. He said other illuminated scopes by bushnell didn't do this but for some reason that's how that one was made and it is what it is... So they admitted selling a faulty product with the bushnell name backing it (long story--ended up very disappointed in bushnell and was previously a very happy customer of theirs). I got my refund and went with the vortex viper pst. Plus their lifetime VIP full transferable warranty is unbeatable. Do a YouTube search for national shooting sports foundation. Find their scope videos. Good info.
 
I just can't get used to the idea of a FFP scope for known-distance, long-range, minute of angle targets.

I admit I can be missing something, because I haven't owned one. Guess I could buy one and sell it if I don't like it...

I'm a big fan of Vortex, own three of their optics, all of them SFP. I have to wonder why I see so many Viper PST's for sale- used. They hold their value- but it still begs the question to me whether it's the FFP issue.

Wouldn't even a fine-line reticle, completely obscure a 12" gong at 1,000 yards with a FFP reticle?

I understand and don't need an explanation for their use with ranging- but I do not agree that they are the best choice for all applications.
 
Wouldn't even a fine-line reticle, completely obscure a 12" gong at 1,000 yards with a FFP reticle?
Click to expand...

NO The reticle cross hairs on a viper pst are .18 MOA at all mag . @ 1000yds that is a little under 2" . So a 12" target you would still see 10" of it or 5" on each side of the cross hairs . The problem comes when your at a low magnification at long range both the target and the reticle look small . The reticle is still only covering that 2" area but your eye will have a harder time seeing it .

Check out the second video I posted above from time 2:30 to 3:40 you will see how the reticle is the same proportional size to the target 200+ yards away At both max and min magnifications
 
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Are you handloader? You haven't mentioned that. A precise rifle needs good ammo tuned in harmony with the rifle.

FWIW...

...bug
 
yea bart touched on that while making a few good points as he often does . We are taking baby steps here . First he needs the rifle . The rifle he chose does not come with iron sights so he will need an optic before he can ever take that first shot with Federal GMM ammo :)
 
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