New to AR and Self Defense Questions

Here's a good take on shotgun vs. AR:

http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/deflonggun.html

BTW, I've taken AR and shotgun classes from Karl and Tom Givens as a visiting instructor as well as one from Steve Moses on shotgun.

I do go to range and matches (I believe in the scientific method) and go for the AR as first reached house long arm. Both are available to me and good to go.

I've written up Tom's class in the shotgun forum. If interested one can search for it. It was great. The speed exercise was a blast. Great exposition on the controlled pattern buckshot also.
 
This may sound like an irritating broken record, but when it comes to the serious business of self defense, the gun (and ammo) is the least of it,
The behavior of bullets is not trust worthy.
None of them.
Maybe the round will act as expected, but maybe not.
So, the shooter has to have the brains.
Especially since that is who will answer for the results.
Please, get training, get training, ...........
Repeat ad nauseam.
Military training is different than civilian self defense training, isn't it?
There's a lot of info on this subject at http://modernselfprotection.com/
 
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Sgt Lumpy, velocity and diameter are not the only factors in bullet penetration. From testing I've seen, the M193 is prone to yawing after experiencing a barrier or human/animal target. It winds up being a very poor penetrator after yawing, as it usually strikes the next thing at an odd angle and presents a much larger cross section.

Soft point and ballistic tip rounds have a good chance of expanding or disintegrating (mostly varmint rounds for the latter). Therefore, they will not overpenetrate as much as something like FMJ .308 or many FMJ handgun rounds.

None of this is to say that overpenetration is not an issue. Any round with enough oomph to stop an attacker WILL go through drywall! So, hitting your intended target and having relatively safe backgrounds are still vitally important to home defense. Training and planning are important.
 
And that has guaranteed safe driving among teenagers?

When you go to classes - you find the instructor always has to shut up folks who want to talk bullets and guns. The teachers wanted to discuss mindset, tactics, etc.

But Teacher - should I use 165 gr vs 230?
 
Clarification and Thanks

For all the replies, thanks.

Additionally, I apologize for any confusion as I was cramming questions together. My purchase of an AR and my interest in home defense are not really related. The ammo question was simply for recreational shooting.

My interest in learning more about home defense was a separate topic. At this time I do not plan to use the AR for home defense. I do not have the experience or training to do so. I'm simply looking to learn the various aspects of home defense and the most realistic situations.

Sorry about that...but the ensuing discussion has been informative.
 
SgtLumpy said:
I don't need to go to the range. Your opinion may vary. Mine is that a 3000 fps 22 in a long gun is a very poor choice for home defense.
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The basis you gave for your opinion (overpenetration) is factually incorrect. Several types of .223 ammo will penetrate LESS than .45ACP 230gr JHP in ballistics gel and are less likely to be lethal after passing through an intermediate barrier.

A 55gr bullet moving at 3000fps tends to break up when it hits something and the resulting fragments have little mass and shed energy quickly. A .45 travelling at 1000fps stays in one piece until it runs out of energy.

Here is another example, in addition to the one already given to you:
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njpdresources/pdfs/wallboard_test.pdf
 
The basis you gave for your opinion (overpenetration) is factually incorrect.
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OK.

Regardless of whatever "facts" you may have read, MY OPINION is that a long gun at 3k fps, 223 cal is inappropriate for home defense.

Now before the thread gets shut down, can we agree to disagree? Or do I need to give you the names of the widows and kids of my LEO friends (two of them, separate incidents) who were killed when shot with an AR through car body panels AND a ballistic vest?

Please choose whatever you want for HD. If you think a rifle designed for fighting in the jungle is ideal, please use that. I hope you never have to use that, or any weapon, to shoot someone.


Sgt Lumpy
 
SgtLumpy said:
Or do I need to give you the names of the widows and kids of my LEO friends (two of them, separate incidents) who were killed when shot with an AR through car body panels AND a ballistic vest?
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Why? Nobody here is disputing that .223 is capable of penetrating car doors or body armor. What more than one person is telling you is that with the right ammo selection, .223 will present less of a lethal threat after passing through a barrier than 9mm, .40, or .45. In fact, some types of .223 will even penetrate less 10% ordnance gel than those calibers with no barrier at all involved.

Ammo type is more important than caliber. Additionally, understanding the physics of what happens when a bullet strikes something is important. This doesn't mean that you can grab any .223 and use it indoors without penetrating other rooms - on the contrary, pretty much any caliber that meets the FBI minimum criteria for self-defense will penetrate multiple indoor walls.

However, the stuff you were saying about .223 penetration is hyperbole. Even .223 FMJ that fails to yaw or fragment doesn't penetrate like that. You clearly are either not reading or not understanding the links if you aren't getting some of these concepts.
 
btmj said:
I tested winchester 64 grain 223 soft point with plastic jugs of water. penetration was about the same as 9mm 125 gr +p (Federal HST) and 45 ACP 230 gr gold dot HP. In all cases, 2 jugs were competely penetrated and the bullet stopped in the third jug.

I also re-ran the test by shooting through a 3/4 inch plywood first, followed by jugs of water. The 9mm penetrated the farthest, going through 3 jugs and stopped by the backstop. the 45 and 223 were both stopped by the 3rd jug.

This took about 20 jugs of water and was a lot more work than I expected. I was very skeptical that 223 soft points would not be an over-penetration hazard, but I satisfied my skepticism.
Click to expand...

Did you fire the 223 and the 9mm at the same distance from the jugs? If so, what was the distance?
 
Did you fire the 223 and the 9mm at the same distance from the jugs? If so, what was the distance?
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I don't remember exactly. Probably about 25 feet.

I do remember the huge difference in water spray. The handgun rounds busted open the first jug and then penetrated the rest. The 223 absolutely pulverized the water jugs and threw water spray a great distance. The impact was much more violent with the 223.
 
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