New Resident of GA looking to make a Purchase

This means a physical address. ATF regulations clearly do not permit the use of a P.O Box or other mailing address. The address you claim as your current residence address must actually be the address where you reside.

For someone who is travelling the country constantly it may well be impossible to truthfully claim a "current address and state of residence" on Question 2 of the Form 4473.

So what is the answer in this scenario:

Mr. and Mrs. Smith live 8 months in Michigan and then bring their RV to Florida for the winter where they put it in a RV park. All of their IDs are Michigan, including the tag and registration of the RV. For four months they are residents of FL, living in the RV, so how would they go about (or better I guess what documents would they need) to go buy a handgun in FL?
 
FITASC said:
So what is the answer in this scenario:

Mr. and Mrs. Smith live 8 months in Michigan and then bring their RV to Florida for the winter where they put it in a RV park. All of their IDs are Michigan, including the tag and registration of the RV. For four months they are residents of FL, living in the RV, so how would they go about (or better I guess what documents would they need) to go buy a handgun in FL?
If they're residing in their RV at an RV park, then the address at their RV park is their residence. They'd need to get some kind of government-issued documentation showing their name and this address, and then they could combine that with a government-issued photo ID to buy a firearm.

They wouldn't just need to use their FL address to buy a handgun, they'd also need to use their FL address to buy a long gun. Yes, an out-of-state resident can buy a long gun, but they're not out-of-state residents, they're actually living in FL. So if they put their MI address on the 4473 while they're living in FL, that would be a felony because they're lying about their residence on the 4473.
 
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So what kind of government-issued ID can an RVer get when parked at a rented/leased space in an RV campground that's owned by someone else? It's not like they're going to get a tax bill, or even a utility bill.
 
Aguila Blanca So what kind of government-issued ID can an RVer get when parked at a rented/leased space in an RV campground that's owned by someone else? It's not like they're going to get a tax bill, or even a utility bill.
"ID" isn't needed as they can use their current government issued photo ID they already have. What they must provide the dealer is government issued documentation that shows their current address in Florida and their name.

This could be a hunting/fishing license, letter from the city, state, or Federal governments, even a traffic ticket.
 
The definition of residency as listed in 27 CFR 478.11 as required in 2010-6 ATF ruling:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Since the question is whether or not the person is a resident and the definition used in the document excludes his visitation as "residency" he cannot purchase a gun out of state.
 
Today 07:20 PM
ShootistPRS The definition of residency as listed in 27 CFR 478.11 as required in 2010-6 ATF ruling:

State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.
A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Since the question is whether or not the person is a resident and the definition used in the document excludes his visitation as "residency" he cannot purchase a gun out of state.
For your example, that would be correct.

And your example in no way, shape or form comes anywhere close to the OP's situation.
OP isn't on a "trip" or visit..........HE'S LIVING THERE.
All he has to do is get a government issued document that shows his name and current address in GA. (and the example of the RV'ers is the same)
 
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I'm sorry Tom, as I see it there is no intent to make a home, he is there on a business trip only and intends to return to his home after the business is completed. Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there. It is a business trip, albeit a prolonged business trip it remains a business trip. There is no intent to make a residence.
You are free to believe what you like.
 
ShootistPRS said:
Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there.
For the purposes of federal law when buying a firearm, those are the same thing: If you're living somewhere you're making a home there.

We've explained this multiple times with several direct references to federal law and ATF rulings. I already pointed out that you're completely misinterpreting what the term "making a home" means.

Every time a thread about residency comes up, there's always someone who overthinks it. But it's super simple: Residency when transferring firearms is simply about where you're living at that moment.
 
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Today 09:43 PM
ShootistPRS I'm sorry Tom, as I see it there is no intent to make a home, he is there on a business trip only and intends to return to his home after the business is completed. Of course he is living there, but he is NOT making a home there. He has no intention of making a home there. It is a business trip, albeit a prolonged business trip it remains a business trip. There is no intent to make a residence.
You are free to believe what you like.
So.........you believe his state of residence is in a state where HE DOES NOT LIVE?:rolleyes:

Laughably wrong fella.;)
And here's why (my comments in RED)

ATF Rul. 2010-6
..........A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
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State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
According to the OP, he's in GA for at least SIX MONTHS, that's not a "short term stay" by any stretch of the imagination.



To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State. Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473, which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.
The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
See.......here's where ATF says a buyer must provide a government issued photo ID that shows his name and residence address. As the Form 4473 REQUIRES the buyers CURRENT residence address, an out of state license will not suffice on it's own.


ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179.
Well?
ATF even says you can buy in multiple states DURING THE TIME YOU ACTUALLY RESIDE IN THAT PARTICULAR STATE.



Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off-campus housing is located.
Whuuuut?:eek:
Even a college student?
Do you still believe the OP isn't making GA his residence? A college student is MUCH more temporary or transient than the OP.





The same reasoning applies to citizens of the United States who reside temporarily outside of the country for extended periods of time, but who also maintain residency in a particular State. Where a citizen temporarily resides outside of the country, but also has the intention of making a home in a particular State, the citizen is a resident of the State during the time he or she actually resides in that State.
"During the time he or she actually resides in that State"
What part of that do you just not understand?:rolleyes:





In acquiring a firearm, the individual must
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demonstrate to the transferor-licensee that he or she is a resident of the State by presenting valid identification documents.
A government issued photo ID and if that ID does not show the current residence address a combination of other government issued documents may be used to show residency. That's all the OP needs to show.;)



Held, for the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.

Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
Someone like the OP WHO IS LIVING IN GA for SIX FREAKING MONTHS can easily obtain a government document showing his name and address in GA.
That would make him a resident of GA WHILE HE LIVES IN GA.


Date approved: November 10, 2010
Kenneth E. Melson
Deputy Director
 
So, Dogtown Tom, what you're really saying seems to be that, although the BATFE officially recognizes that a person may have multiple states of residence (at non-overlapping periods of time), the BATFE also effectively makes it impossible to purchase firearms (at least from in FFL) in more than one of the states. The directives you cite all point to an FFL needing to see photo ID, which means that such things as tax bills from a state in which someone owns a vacation home will not suffice. But just how does someone obtain photo ID in a second state?

As far as I know, no state will issue a driver's license to someone who maintains a driver's license and residence in another state. Car registrations, if one wanted to register a spare vehicle in the vacation home state, don't include a photo. Perhaps a carry permit would work, IF the second state issues permits, but ... will state B issue a permit using the address in their state if the applicant has a permit and driver's license from state A?

At one time I briefly thought that a passport or passport card might help ... until I remembered that a passport doesn't provide a current residence address.

So the BATFE recognizes in theory that a person may have more than one state of residence, but then they establish other rules that make it essentially impossible to proceed under that theory. Does that about sum it up?
 
No, you don't need to have a photo ID from your state of residence, and Tom's not saying that either. What he's saying is that you need a valid government-issued photo ID and some government-issue proof of address showing your current residence. For most people, that's just a drivers license; their license has both their photo on it and their name and current address.

But suppose someone has a valid drivers license from, say, OR but they're currently living in WA: Then they'd use their OR drivers license as their photo ID, but they'd need some secondary government-issued document that shows their name and current address that shows their residence in WA. This secondary proof of residence doesn't need to be a photo ID since they already have a photo ID, this proof of residence can be a hunting license, a utility bill (if the utility company is a government entity), vehicle registration, etc.
 
Aguila Blanca So, Dogtown Tom, what you're really saying seems to be that, although the BATFE officially recognizes that a person may have multiple states of residence (at non-overlapping periods of time), the BATFE also effectively makes it impossible to purchase firearms (at least from in FFL) in more than one of the states.
I've not written anything remotely close to that.
In fact, I've explained MULTIPLE times how a buyer living in GA, with a California drivers license can acquire any type of firearm while he is living in Georgia.





The directives you cite all point to an FFL needing to see photo ID, which means that such things as tax bills from a state in which someone owns a vacation home will not suffice. But just how does someone obtain photo ID in a second state?
Wrong again.
The ATF Ruling 2010-6 clearly says the buyer can use ANY government issued photo ID. But if that does not show the CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS then the buyer needs to provide another government document that shows the buyers name and current residence address.




As far as I know, no state will issue a driver's license to someone who maintains a driver's license and residence in another state. Car registrations, if one wanted to register a spare vehicle in the vacation home state, don't include a photo. Perhaps a carry permit would work, IF the second state issues permits, but ... will state B issue a permit using the address in their state if the applicant has a permit and driver's license from state A?
You need to quit imagining the ways to not buy a gun and start reading what ATF says are they ways you can buy a gun.





At one time I briefly thought that a passport or passport card might help ... until I remembered that a passport doesn't provide a current residence address.
It can serve as the gov issued photo ID. Add in another government issued document showing the buyers name and current address and you are good to go.





So the BATFE recognizes in theory that a person may have more than one state of residence, but then they establish other rules that make it essentially impossible to proceed under that theory. Does that about sum it up?
Not remotely close to what has been written over the last three pages.
 
Well, I have gotten frustrated enough to place a call and write an email to the BATFE for clarification on this matter. I will share the answers I get.
 
Good grief. There is no need for any clarification on this matter. The ATF is very clear on this. But knock yourself out, they're going to tell you the same thing that they've already issued in rulings, the same thing that each ATF Industry Ops agent has told FFLs like Tom and me during our ATF inspections, and the same thing that Tom and I have been telling you over and over again throughout this thread.
 
ShootistPRS Well, I have gotten frustrated enough to place a call and write an email to the BATFE for clarification on this matter. I will share the answers I get.
To be blunt, you need to work on your reading comprehension first, as you likely will not understand when they copy and paste Ruling 2010-6.;)
 
Theo,
You may be right but when I have a question on details I go to where I can get known valid, first party answers. I don't have to be concerned with misinterpretations or legal meanderings.
 
In that case, you'd be better off contacting a lawyer who specializes in federal firearms law. If you're contacting the ATF via phone or email, you're not guaranteed to get a subject matter expert. Besides, they're probably going to just refer you to Ruling 2010-6 like Tom pointed out.

Also, if you're going to get into legal details, they probably won't answer your question even if they are a subject matter expert. I once asked an ATF Industry Ops agent during an inspection what "close proximity" meant (in reference to ATF Ruling 2011-4). He told me to ask a lawyer.
 
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So, dogtown
One other scenario if you please

I moved to GA for college from another state (40+ years ago); and was issued a college ID . It is a state college. Even though, to them, I was out of state student and had to pay tuition as such, my college ID would have allowed me to buy a gun, correct?
Even if my DL was from another state?
 
FITASC So, dogtown
One other scenario if you please

I moved to GA for college from another state (40+ years ago); and was issued a college ID . It is a state college. Even though, to them, I was out of state student and had to pay tuition as such, my college ID would have allowed me to buy a gun, correct?
Even if my DL was from another state?
If it was today, YES, you could claim GA while you are living in GA.
Ruling 80-21 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1980-21-identification-state-residency-out-state-college-students/download
27 C.F.R. 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21
[Status of ruling: Active]
The Bureau has been asked to determine the State of residence of out-of-State college students for purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968. “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.
Applying the above example to out-of- State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
But note the date of that Ruling.......1980.
It likely would have been legal prior to that as Federal law did not magically change. I would guess that enough questions were posed on that subject to ATF that they issued a ruling to clear it up.
 
Tom, you are accusing others of lacking reading comprehension but, every time I think I'm getting closer to understanding, you post something meant to be helpful that only mussies the waters.

What YOU cited (parsed for clarity, but quoted exactly from your post):

section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee.

...

The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . .

How is my reading comprehension faulty?

1) The licensee (FFL) must examine an "identification document" of the transferee.

2) "Identification document" is defined as a government-issued document showing the tranferee's name and residence address.

Yet you say a transferee can use a photo ID from another state, or a passport that has NO address, plus something else. Please explain how that squares with the information YOU cited?
 
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