New program to curtail unruly behavior
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What evidence do you have that a liberal came up with the idea that punishing children doesn't teach them the right way to act? Speaking from my own experience growing up, especially in my teen years, I typical became pissed of and the person doing to punishing and tried to figure out ways to piss them off in return. Look at how many teenagers rack up multiple fines for the same reason, such as curfew, underage drinking, smoking, speeding etc., and how many of us have continued to speed after recieving a speeding ticket or continued to illegally park after recieving a parking ticket? Such evidence would suggest that the fines for these activities do nothing to teach people the right way to act because it does nothing to teach anyone why they are wrong. If someone doesn't see why their actions were wrong they have learned nothing and will not adjust their behavior. I agree that something must be done, but this is not it. It is simply a way for the local police department to hand out more fines to increase revenue.
And why must every bad idea be a liberal idea? I have seen both Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, come up with some horrible ideas. I have also seen both sides come up with good ideas. Simply denouncing and idea because it came from either a democrat or republican, or supporting all of a parties positions because you agree with a few, does no good for anyone and only furthers to worsen the situation.
And why must every bad idea be a liberal idea? I have seen both Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, come up with some horrible ideas. I have also seen both sides come up with good ideas. Simply denouncing and idea because it came from either a democrat or republican, or supporting all of a parties positions because you agree with a few, does no good for anyone and only furthers to worsen the situation.
Because it is a liberal idea that a conservative wouldn't offer in opposition of the Citations...
We agree it doesn't teach them anything with "positive reinforcement"
But, the priority here is NEGATIVE reinforcement which should have been "caned" into their backsides!!!
I can't see how you are so blind to this fact...
You don't look stupid...
You just sound liberal...
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In general it sounds like a good program to me. As to the parents having to pay, it was always a fact that parents had a large degree of responsibility for the actions of their children.
Children need to understand that there are consequences for their actions, and sometimes those consequences are painful or expensive. Their parents need to know that they have a responsibility to teach proper behavior to their children. It is necessary for an orderly society.
Years ago everyone understood that, but with the 60s and since so many think they are not accountable to anyone for anything.
Cursing should not be acceptable in schools, but especially aimed at teachers and authorities in the school.
Liberals often make the point that spanking sends the wrong message; that violence solves problems. However, it actually sends the message of responsibility for your actions and the consequences might be very painful.
It is better for them to learn that as children than adults when the consequences might be prison or death.
If parents have to pay, it might cause some of them to set higher standards of behavior and disipline.
Jerry
Children need to understand that there are consequences for their actions, and sometimes those consequences are painful or expensive. Their parents need to know that they have a responsibility to teach proper behavior to their children. It is necessary for an orderly society.
Years ago everyone understood that, but with the 60s and since so many think they are not accountable to anyone for anything.
Cursing should not be acceptable in schools, but especially aimed at teachers and authorities in the school.
Liberals often make the point that spanking sends the wrong message; that violence solves problems. However, it actually sends the message of responsibility for your actions and the consequences might be very painful.
It is better for them to learn that as children than adults when the consequences might be prison or death.
If parents have to pay, it might cause some of them to set higher standards of behavior and disipline.
Jerry
HiPowering Along
New member
And if the parents could bust the kid's butt (corporal punishment yes, it's a good thing) without fear of getting arrested for "child abuse", the world would be a different place.
When I was growing up, if I got out of line (like the thread is describing), lying, stealing, beating up a sibling (not in self defense) - I got my backside tanned and good. I was told what I did, why I was getting the punishment, and had to take it. No questions asked.
And imagine this - I grew up without getting suspended, expelled, arrested or thrown out of town. Graduated from college with honors, hold a good job, and will jump in to defend our freedoms in a heartbeat.
This country is going to h3ll in a handbasket and is rapidly gaining speed. Take the liberal tree-huggin' 'Johnny take a time out' jackasses and pile them up in Kalifornia - maybe the weight will finally break the San Andreas Fault and Nevada and Arizona will have beachfront property.
<end rant>
When I was growing up, if I got out of line (like the thread is describing), lying, stealing, beating up a sibling (not in self defense) - I got my backside tanned and good. I was told what I did, why I was getting the punishment, and had to take it. No questions asked.
And imagine this - I grew up without getting suspended, expelled, arrested or thrown out of town. Graduated from college with honors, hold a good job, and will jump in to defend our freedoms in a heartbeat.
This country is going to h3ll in a handbasket and is rapidly gaining speed. Take the liberal tree-huggin' 'Johnny take a time out' jackasses and pile them up in Kalifornia - maybe the weight will finally break the San Andreas Fault and Nevada and Arizona will have beachfront property.
<end rant>
Old thread, but some of the responses make me wonder: Why does everyone assume that Mom and Dad ultimately pick up the tab?
When my brother spent a couple days in juvie when he was a teenager, my parents were presented with a bill for his "lodging." They paid it. Then they went home and sold some of his stuff, with his reluctant permission, to reimburse themselves for the expense.
Seems to me that only bad parents are going to be punished for their kids' misbehavior. The others will simply pass the pain along...
pax
When my brother spent a couple days in juvie when he was a teenager, my parents were presented with a bill for his "lodging." They paid it. Then they went home and sold some of his stuff, with his reluctant permission, to reimburse themselves for the expense.
Seems to me that only bad parents are going to be punished for their kids' misbehavior. The others will simply pass the pain along...
pax
Azurefly:
Yeah sure, I guess swearing isn't much after resisting and assault on an officer, but it seems to have the desired effect here. She will still go down swinging...just not cussing.
For those of you who don't know Hartford, these are not "high school students" these are inner city thugs and thugettes.
They don't have parents. Maybe they have a mother who has 2 or 3 "Baby Daddies" hanging around when they need a booty call.
Maybe they have a grandmother or aunt if they are lucky.
Very few will have a father.
They are taught to hate police and authority from an early age.
I suppose this is an attempt to slowly curb their unruly behavior.
You have to start somewhere.
If a daughter of mine took a swing at a cop while being handcuffed she would be grounded (with a padlock on door and window) for a year in an empty room on a bare mattress.
But I am sure this kid just gets a high five from her peeps.
You do have to start somewhere.
G
Don't be a jackass.
Yeah sure, I guess swearing isn't much after resisting and assault on an officer, but it seems to have the desired effect here. She will still go down swinging...just not cussing.
For those of you who don't know Hartford, these are not "high school students" these are inner city thugs and thugettes.
They don't have parents. Maybe they have a mother who has 2 or 3 "Baby Daddies" hanging around when they need a booty call.
Maybe they have a grandmother or aunt if they are lucky.
Very few will have a father.
They are taught to hate police and authority from an early age.
I suppose this is an attempt to slowly curb their unruly behavior.
You have to start somewhere.
If a daughter of mine took a swing at a cop while being handcuffed she would be grounded (with a padlock on door and window) for a year in an empty room on a bare mattress.
But I am sure this kid just gets a high five from her peeps.
You do have to start somewhere.
G
Mike in VA
New member
The point is: Actions have consequences! Cuss out the wrong people without good cause, you pay (here, it's just $$, elsewhere in can cost some real skin-). It's also about a civil society.
If mommy and daddy failed to inculcate this simple concept, they should pay, too. Clearly, both parents and child need the lesson. If parents are on board, and the kid is unresponsive, then the kid needs some 'schooling' at his/her own expense ($$ and/or skin, as appropriate).
If mommy and daddy failed to inculcate this simple concept, they should pay, too. Clearly, both parents and child need the lesson. If parents are on board, and the kid is unresponsive, then the kid needs some 'schooling' at his/her own expense ($$ and/or skin, as appropriate).
FAL
What the Hell do you propose instead??
Show me the money!!
Doing something is required, and while the Liberals are inventing some new strategy to be as "civilized" as Ted Kennedy or John Kerry or Ms Clinton, the rest of America is getting gut-sick of waiting for some results!!!
There are a number of Western Civilzations that have less crime per capita than the U.S. The Liberal way DOES NOT WORK!!!!!
You probably won't like the sound of this... but if you're not with the conservatives...you are against them!
I understand why you don't wish to be called a Liberal...
Keep trying, and maybe your wish will come true!
That's why you're not a conservative...
What the Hell do you propose instead??
Show me the money!!
Doing something is required, and while the Liberals are inventing some new strategy to be as "civilized" as Ted Kennedy or John Kerry or Ms Clinton, the rest of America is getting gut-sick of waiting for some results!!!
There are a number of Western Civilzations that have less crime per capita than the U.S. The Liberal way DOES NOT WORK!!!!!
You probably won't like the sound of this... but if you're not with the conservatives...you are against them!
I understand why you don't wish to be called a Liberal...
Keep trying, and maybe your wish will come true!
Pointer,
Did you noticed that you contradicted yourself in your response to me?
There are a number of Western Civilzations that have less crime per capita than the U.S. The Liberal way DOES NOT WORK!!!!!
This is what you said right? Well nearly all Western Civilizations are more liberal than the U.S., such as Britain, Germany, Italy, Canada, Austrailia, etc. to name a few. America is one of the most conservative Western Civilizations. Now I don't think that these countries are overall better than the U.S., but if like you say, these liberal countries have lower crime than the U.S., then well something in these liberal countries must be working, right?
And your right, I am not a conservative, and I am not a liberal, I consider myself independent which allows me to go along with the good ideas of each side without having to pretend to like the horrible aspects of each side or party. It's kinda nice actually.
Did you noticed that you contradicted yourself in your response to me?
There are a number of Western Civilzations that have less crime per capita than the U.S. The Liberal way DOES NOT WORK!!!!!
This is what you said right? Well nearly all Western Civilizations are more liberal than the U.S., such as Britain, Germany, Italy, Canada, Austrailia, etc. to name a few. America is one of the most conservative Western Civilizations. Now I don't think that these countries are overall better than the U.S., but if like you say, these liberal countries have lower crime than the U.S., then well something in these liberal countries must be working, right?
And your right, I am not a conservative, and I am not a liberal, I consider myself independent which allows me to go along with the good ideas of each side without having to pretend to like the horrible aspects of each side or party. It's kinda nice actually.
Fal
You are correct...
At first blush, it appears that I did, indeed, contradict myself...
The main difference is that they are not "installing revolving doors" in their prisons.
Prison conditions are very unpleasant...
Paroles are pretty much damned difficult to get...
As an MP assigned to the Provost Marshal's Office... I was privy to some interesting facts... because we had to do monthly reports on US Military personel who were in civilian prison for felonies committed in the host nation.
They are contained in solitary (only one prisoner per cell)
They are not allowed to level their heads in the presence of prison authorities.
They are not allowed to initiate speaking with authorities... and the gurads are forbidden to hold any conversation with them.
They are completely deprived of all privileges... like coffee, tea, tobacco, TV, reading materiel and communication with other prisoners for the first year in prison...
They use a bucket to relieve themselves and they are responsible for keeping it cleaned out.
They receive one clean sheet for their bunk each week and rotate the top sheet down and the new sheet on top...
They eat very sparsely one meal a day... with bread, soup, cheese and water.
the other "meals" are cereal and a piece of fruit, or the like.
They get one very closely supervised excercise period of about a half-hour where they walk in circles in a small yard with other first years like elephants holding tails.
If they pi$$ off a guard the year starts over!
Second years have it better, they get a little meat, and coffee or tea with their meals and one or two cigarettes a week.
They will then be allowed to talk to each other a little and play a little soccer at excercise periods.
The prison authorities can add time to their sentences for infractions on the prison rules.
Their sentences are occasionally shorter, but they "feel" very long.
(i.e., 7 years for arson plus restiution to the owners of the burned property.)
They are completely subdued.
These are the prison conditions in one of the most Liberal nations on earth...
FRANCE!
Is it any wonder they have less crime per capita?
And, we haven't even mentioned Japan and Singapore, which both have very severe penalty systems.
A $103 fine for swearing in the face of authority?
I say cane them...
You are correct...
At first blush, it appears that I did, indeed, contradict myself...
The main difference is that they are not "installing revolving doors" in their prisons.
Prison conditions are very unpleasant...
Paroles are pretty much damned difficult to get...
As an MP assigned to the Provost Marshal's Office... I was privy to some interesting facts... because we had to do monthly reports on US Military personel who were in civilian prison for felonies committed in the host nation.
They are contained in solitary (only one prisoner per cell)
They are not allowed to level their heads in the presence of prison authorities.
They are not allowed to initiate speaking with authorities... and the gurads are forbidden to hold any conversation with them.
They are completely deprived of all privileges... like coffee, tea, tobacco, TV, reading materiel and communication with other prisoners for the first year in prison...
They use a bucket to relieve themselves and they are responsible for keeping it cleaned out.
They receive one clean sheet for their bunk each week and rotate the top sheet down and the new sheet on top...
They eat very sparsely one meal a day... with bread, soup, cheese and water.
the other "meals" are cereal and a piece of fruit, or the like.
They get one very closely supervised excercise period of about a half-hour where they walk in circles in a small yard with other first years like elephants holding tails.
If they pi$$ off a guard the year starts over!
Second years have it better, they get a little meat, and coffee or tea with their meals and one or two cigarettes a week.
They will then be allowed to talk to each other a little and play a little soccer at excercise periods.
The prison authorities can add time to their sentences for infractions on the prison rules.
Their sentences are occasionally shorter, but they "feel" very long.
(i.e., 7 years for arson plus restiution to the owners of the burned property.)
They are completely subdued.
These are the prison conditions in one of the most Liberal nations on earth...
FRANCE!
Is it any wonder they have less crime per capita?
And, we haven't even mentioned Japan and Singapore, which both have very severe penalty systems.
A $103 fine for swearing in the face of authority?
I say cane them...
Pointer,
I think we should get rid of the revolving prison doors and make those sentenced to prison serve their full time. I think American prisoners have it too easy, though if the U.S. went as far as some of your examples it would be going to far in the other direction as guards should not be able to do anything they want to the prisoners. A balance must be found between the two.
I thought we were talking about Western Civilizations? These are both far east. But I agree where your going the Eastern and Far Eastern cultures are typically much more harsh than the Western Civilizations.
Derious, if I don't agree 100% with something why would I want to commit to it? I will support what I agree with and criticize what I don't agree with. I won't blindly follow anyone, or any party, without seriously thinking about what they say.
I think we should get rid of the revolving prison doors and make those sentenced to prison serve their full time. I think American prisoners have it too easy, though if the U.S. went as far as some of your examples it would be going to far in the other direction as guards should not be able to do anything they want to the prisoners. A balance must be found between the two.
I thought we were talking about Western Civilizations? These are both far east. But I agree where your going the Eastern and Far Eastern cultures are typically much more harsh than the Western Civilizations.
Derious, if I don't agree 100% with something why would I want to commit to it? I will support what I agree with and criticize what I don't agree with. I won't blindly follow anyone, or any party, without seriously thinking about what they say.
Fal
I mention these places because they have the lowest per capita crime rates.
Tough on crime IS A DETERENT TO CRIME!
Liberals are soft on criminals... They are misunderstood...
What needs to be done is make certain that they UNDERSTAND.
Appeals for 10 and 15 and 20 years on death row???
What a joke our system is...
The immediate pain of $103 is more effective than the death penalty!!!
I still think we should adopt caning...
I mention these places because they have the lowest per capita crime rates.
Tough on crime IS A DETERENT TO CRIME!
Liberals are soft on criminals... They are misunderstood...
What needs to be done is make certain that they UNDERSTAND.
Appeals for 10 and 15 and 20 years on death row???
What a joke our system is...
The immediate pain of $103 is more effective than the death penalty!!!
I still think we should adopt caning...
invention_45
New member
Pointer: I don't like the fine system either. You want me to suggest something? Let the parents cooperate with the "system" to punish the errant kid.
I was in court at least 10 times asking for help (a day in jail) corraling my daughter's inclination to run away and skip school. Nope. I did everything the police suggested except to pinch her so I wouldn't be arrested if she complained about my use of corporal punishment (they said it would hurt but not make a mark). Stripped her room bare. Hauled over 100 beautiful stuffed animals to the dump.
The ONLY time I got a judge to display that the "system" could have a very mean face was in traffic court. Kid was caught smoking pot in a car, so that's the court it ended up in. Judge could see by my body language I wanted HIM to show a little of his power. Kid made the mistake of smartmouthing the judge, and he had her handcuffed to her chair for about 25 minutes.
I had to resort to trickery and a screaming fight with a juvenile court judge in his courtroom to get any action.
The idea is to punish the person who's misbehaving, NOT the parent who's already practically setting up camp at the courthouse.
And just try to pull any of that "spare the rod" crap in Dade County. The savvier kids will have you splainin yourself to a cop (if you're lucky).
She's 22 now and things are a whole lot better. That is the result of MAJOR work on my part, and a $500 fine for me to pay was certainly not any help whatsoever. That law is just the result of some school board nitwit thinking.
Fal_4_me: You got the right idea. There's crap from the left and from the right. I have always been registered as "I" for independent. I make up my own mind. I don't let any "good book" tell me what to do. I don't let any "manifesto" tell me what to do. All I need to know is that if I wouldn't like it done to me, I'm not going to do it to someone else unless they make it necessary.
I was in court at least 10 times asking for help (a day in jail) corraling my daughter's inclination to run away and skip school. Nope. I did everything the police suggested except to pinch her so I wouldn't be arrested if she complained about my use of corporal punishment (they said it would hurt but not make a mark). Stripped her room bare. Hauled over 100 beautiful stuffed animals to the dump.
The ONLY time I got a judge to display that the "system" could have a very mean face was in traffic court. Kid was caught smoking pot in a car, so that's the court it ended up in. Judge could see by my body language I wanted HIM to show a little of his power. Kid made the mistake of smartmouthing the judge, and he had her handcuffed to her chair for about 25 minutes.
I had to resort to trickery and a screaming fight with a juvenile court judge in his courtroom to get any action.
The idea is to punish the person who's misbehaving, NOT the parent who's already practically setting up camp at the courthouse.
And just try to pull any of that "spare the rod" crap in Dade County. The savvier kids will have you splainin yourself to a cop (if you're lucky).
She's 22 now and things are a whole lot better. That is the result of MAJOR work on my part, and a $500 fine for me to pay was certainly not any help whatsoever. That law is just the result of some school board nitwit thinking.
Fal_4_me: You got the right idea. There's crap from the left and from the right. I have always been registered as "I" for independent. I make up my own mind. I don't let any "good book" tell me what to do. I don't let any "manifesto" tell me what to do. All I need to know is that if I wouldn't like it done to me, I'm not going to do it to someone else unless they make it necessary.
Where the hell did that come from?
Nobody on this thread has said anything remotely like that.
But, don't ask Invention_45 he hasn't read the whole thread and jumps to conclusions just like you did...
Perhaps if she'd had to work for a dollar an hour for five hundred hours to pay it back to you...?
The parent is supposed to be responsible for the behavior of their children.
Nobody from my generation, or my Dad's, or my Grandpa's, would ever have taken exception to that idea... except those who refuse to take responsibility for themselves.
Having to spend some parental money should have worked as an incentive for the parent to PUNISH their offspring and not necessarily rely on the govmint to do it for them.
But, the Worm would consider 3 or 4 swats with a bamboo cane to be "cruel and unusual"... He hasn't a clue to the idea that if you love them, you chastise them.
Even Cheryl Ladd, (Known for her work with abused children) along with Dr. Benjamin Spock, acknowledges that corporal punishment may be necessary on occassion... She says it shouldn't exceed 3 strokes... one to get the kids attention, second to punish the kid, and third to vent the anger of the parent.
Well at least the Worm's right about one thing...
It is unusual and it's getting more and more unusual with each passing idiot...
The reason criminals don't commit much crime in Singapore is because the police hunt them down with a vengeance and the "caner" puts his best effort into his job!
Before the 1960's, Unwashed, free sex, tune-in-drop-out, civil disobedient Love Generation Communes, the very idea that a whipping is wrong for vandals, bullies, and thieves, would have been openly laughed at...
I'm still laughing... because any person in the whole rest of the world with a minimal IQ of two digits, KNOWS that this is the punishment that FITS THE CRIME!
garand_shooter
New member
It's the fault of the parents that we're in this situation to begin with. Steady and consistent discipline from the moment a child can understand is what avoids these types of problems. Parents have gotten worse. If I got in trouble in school, I prayed they didn't call my folks, because no punishment they could dish out, corporal or otherwise, could compare to the @$$ whipping my dad was going to give me. Now a teacher even makes an attempt at discipline and the parents are suing the school, or at the school fist-fighting the teacher. Same thing with law enforcement. If the cops came and told us to leave the corner, came back and found us again and thumped us, no one whined to their parents. Now, the department would be sued. We are beginning to reap what we have sown.
Parents are responsible for the actions of their children. Some kid throws a rock through your front window, who do you expect to pay?
Parents are responsible for the actions of their children. Some kid throws a rock through your front window, who do you expect to pay?