New Orleans Disaster - Unique?

butch50

New member
If we pay attention we may learn some needed lessons for future disasters. I know several people who say that the NO disaster is a unique kind of disaster with a city below sea level protected by levees.

But:
Several cities are dependent on vulnerable levees
By John Ritter, USA TODAY
SAN FRANCISCO — A repeat of New Orleans' disastrous levee failures is not that far-fetched in a nation heavily dependent on the aging earthen structures to hold back floodwaters.

Rudy Holt walks through an area of of his farm near Holt, Calif. on Jan. 11. The land when it was destroyed when a levee broke in June 2004.
By Max Whittaker, AP

A prime potential trouble spot is here in Northern California, where hundreds of thousands of people live on low-lying land protected by levees. Levee networks are also prominent across the Gulf Coast, in Florida and in heavily populated areas of the Midwest along the Mississippi and Missouri rivers.

"Levees are ubiquitous," says Gerry Galloway, a civil engineer who led a blue-ribbon study aimed at updating U.S. flood management after the devastating flooding along the upper Mississippi in 1993. "There are levees that are marginal and levees that we don't know the answer to whether or not they're marginal. That's the worrisome part."

A levee is an earth dam that runs along a river instead of across it.

Conditions in Northern California's Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta region, where the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers meet and dump into San Francisco Bay, aren't that different from New Orleans. Much of the delta was filled in a century ago for farming.

An earthquake or prolonged, heavy storms could cause levees to rupture near urban areas, particularly around Sacramento. Houses in a booming residential area north of the city could be inundated with up to 20 feet of water.

Widespread levee breaks also could imperil the water supply for 22 million Californians.

A report in January by the state Department of Water Resources concluded that levees in the delta and the fast-growing Central Valley are deteriorating and that new housing and jobs are putting more people at flood risk. Yet in recent years, the report said, money to maintain levees has declined sharply.

The delta includes nearly 60 islands and other spits of land below sea level kept dry, the state report said, by more than 600 miles of levees built on unstable peat soils. The state looks after 1,600 miles of levees that protect at least a half-million people.

A levee break in dry, sunny weather in June 2004 flooded 12,000 acres of farmland and caused $150 million in damage. The cause, like the cause of most levee breaches, is unknown because rushing water washed away the evidence.

In 1997, more than 50 California levees broke on rain-choked rivers and killed eight people, forced the evacuation of 100,000 and damaged or destroyed 24,000 homes.

Levees have failed more than 140 times in the past century, the report said. Many were started when farmers simply pushed back dirt to protect crops. Over the years, they were lengthened and built higher, but the internal guts of those levees — sitting on land that gradually has sunk farther below sea level — often is unknown.

"So it's an old, aging system that instead of protecting farmland is actually protecting small cities, levees of questionable integrity protecting higher value real estate," says Lester Snow, director of the water resources department.

Major levees engineered, built and inspected by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers are more reliable than locally built and maintained levees. But even they can hide dangers. "Regardless of the origin, it's very hard to tell what's going on within the guts of a levee," says Doug Plasencia, a Phoenix engineering consultant who worked on the Galloway report.

Levees settle and can become unstable. Tunneling rodents can open up passageways for water to seep through. If a log was buried in the earth when a levee was built, then deteriorates over the years, an air space can be created that catches water and compromises a levee.

The corps has recently upgraded its levee standards and is trying to better evaluate levees' conditions using sophisticated instruments. Plasencia urges a systematic, nationwide inventory of all levees, particularly those built "by rural communities to divert flow around the town or to keep water out of a cotton field or citrus grove."

The Galloway report had politically odious recommendations such as urging homeowners and farmers to move off flood plains — the areas floodwaters naturally spread onto — and return the area to wetlands, which absorb flooding.

The report also recommended that the federal government require people living behind levees to buy flood insurance because of the "residual risk" and to beef up levee standards in urban areas. Congress has enacted none of the report's major recommendations.

Few levees anywhere in the nation are built to more than a 100-year standard — capable of withstanding a flood so bad that its probability of occurring is once in a 100 years. The report urged a far more expensive 500-year standard for urban areas. In the Netherlands, levees along the Rhine River are built to a 1,250-year standard.

In California, a worst-case scenario would be heavy rains and full reservoirs from Sierra Nevada snow pack runoff combined with earthquakes.

"The only thing we leave out is locust," Snow says. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-11-vulnerable-levees_x.htm

So, what lessons so far should we be paying attention to?


1 Evacuate the hospitals.
2 Evacuate the nursing homes.
3 Expect a lot of people not to be able to get out, so have emergency provisions cached in multiple secure locations within the area, ready to be distributed locally.

What would you add?
 
If a levee breaks you dont have time to evacuate....it minutes from ankle deep to rooftop. You can have the best evacuation plan in the world, if you dont have realistic time factors to ececute it....its worthless.

prevention is the best plan, with what to do in case the worst occurs the second best plan.

I agree with having emergency caches of food and water in storage. With a plan to rotate them out on a regular basis so you dont end up with expired stuff.
 
The first time work was stopped on the levee in 37 years was a last year or the one before with budget cuts from Bush. Last year FEMA, the state and city did an emergency evac drill and ran out of money before completed. But they did estimate 20% of the people would not get out in a disaster like Katrina. God help us if terrorists strike while Bush is on vacation. =) amaverick
 
If a levee breaks you dont have time to evacuate....it minutes from ankle deep to rooftop.
True, in some cases, not true in others. Some levees disintegrate slower than others, some areas are deeper than others, some are closer to the levee, etc....

You need an evacuation plan, and one of the things I noted from the Katrina evaucation was that for those that did leave town under their own power, it was every man for himself. Unless I missed something they didn't tell people that they could go to the Houston Astrodome, or the stadium in Baton Rouge or any other large center where they could gather for help. That seems kind of like a basic thing to me - to have a list of gathering points for the people driving out of town.
 
I remember as a kid in the 50s watching TV showing terrible floods in the Netherlands . Not just a city but most of the country. They then began a very serious program of building dams and levees. ...I recently seen film of the floods in 1927 in the Mississippi basin. It covered a huge area ,much bigger than Katrina.
 
God help us if terrorists strike while Bush is on vacation. =) amaverick

Yep, its old W's fault. Just how many freaking vacations did Clinton take? Huh, Let me guess, the Levee's were fine under Clinton, they just took a turn for the worse under Bush. How many terrorist attacks did we have under Clinton, nothing was done, it did not matter if Clinton was on vacation, on an intern or in office, he did nothing. This is not W's fault, its the fault of the State and Local governments of LA.
 
What made NO unique is wall to wall by a predator media smelling blood. Scale of the disaster was unique but it was the repeated playing of the images of disaster which made it bad.
 
If the idiot named Ray Nagin would have started evacuating people starting Sunday morning, or even Saturday, using school buses and public transit buses that are now useless due to the water damage, the city would've been empty much sooner.

Instead, the locals just sat around with their thumbs in their noses waiting for the Feds to do something.

If they wanted to save lives, they should have acted.
 
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Henry Waxman is indeed an unimpeachable source - NOT! How about a neutral source that doesn't have an anti-Bush agenda?

The following link is to a Washington Post article that says:

"In Katrina's wake, Louisiana politicians and other critics have complained about paltry funding for the Army Corps in general and Louisiana projects in particular. But over the five years of President Bush's administration, Louisiana has received far more money for Corps civil works projects than any other state, about $1.9 billion; California was a distant second with less than $1.4 billion, even though its population is more than seven times as large."

"But overall, the Bush administration's funding requests for the key New Orleans flood-control projects for the past five years were slightly higher than the Clinton administration's for its past five years."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090702462.html?sub=new
 
Sorry to sound lame and childish, but wow, its almost appropriate:

Owned.

Edit: I dont mean to sound too offensive. You make good points, even if I dont agree with you Eghad. Just not this time. Happens to the best of us.
 
Neighborhood Emergency Response Team

NERT is generally organized by your local fire department. It's voluntary and trains people how to respond in an emergency because if the big one hits, the first responders (fire department and paramedics) won't be able to cope with the extent of the disaster. It then falls upon individuals who are trained to help within their community. NERT trains its people in light search and rescue, shutting off gas or water, basic first aid, emergency preparedness (along with recommended tools, equipment and survival items). Depending on the effectiveness of the training and enthusiasm of the members, lists are compiled of neighbors who are elderly, disabled or require assistance. NERT teams would check on them to ensure their well being because the First Responders can't. Community effort is where it's at.
 
Want to prevent something like this again?

Don't vote for corrupt liberal democrats for mayor or govenor.

And tell these "environmentalists" to drop dead:
Decades ago, the Green Left – pursuing its agenda of valuing wetlands and topographical “diversity” over human life – sued to prevent the Army Corps of Engineers from building floodgates that would have prevented significant flooding that resulted from Hurricane Katrina.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19418
 
Boats have high water alarms in the bilges.

I don't understand why it was such a surprise, and the reaction was so slow, when Nawlins started flooding. A levee should have a ring of high water alarms with solar powered sirens and transmitters. I could build such a device pretty cheaply with parts from the marine store and Radio Shack, so it shouldn't add much to the cost of a levee. If there is a breach, the levee should start audibly screaming, and start transmitting a warning.

Of course, then you need a plan to plug the leak.
 
ABC's Dean Reynolds gets reaction from hurricane evacuees at the Houston Astrodome after President Bush's speech

An ABC News reporter who apparently expected hurricane evacuees to criticize the president after his speech last night, instead heard words of praise for Bush and blame for local officials.

Dean Reynolds, in the parking lot of Houston's Astrodome, spoke with black evacuees from New Orleans, but "not one of the six people interviewed on camera had a bad word for Bush – despite Reynolds' best efforts," said the Media Research Center in a report on the segment.

"You talk about a major big media backfire, folks, this is it," commented radio talk host Rush Limbaugh during his show today.



Reynolds asked Connie London: "Did you harbor any anger toward the president because of the slow federal response?"

"No, none whatsoever," she said, "because I feel like our city and our state government should have been there before the federal government was called in."

London pointed out: "They had RTA buses, Greyhound buses, school buses, that was just sitting there going under water when they could have been evacuating people."

Reynolds asked Brenda Marshall: "Was there anything that you found hard to believe that he said, that you thought, well, that's nice rhetoric, but, you know, the proof is in the pudding?"

She replied, "No, I didn't," prompting Reynolds to marvel to anchor Ted Koppel: "Very little skepticism here."

Reynolds pressed another woman: "Did you feel that the president was sincere tonight?"

She affirmed: "Yes, he was."

Reynolds asked who they held culpable for the levee breaks – a problem national media have blamed on Bush-mandated budget cuts:

One evacuee said, "They've been allocated federal funds to fix the levee system, and it never got done. I fault the mayor of our city personally. I really do."

The full text of Reynolds interviews is as follows:

"I'd like to get the reaction of Connie London who spent several horrible hours at the Superdome. You heard the president say repeatedly that you are not alone, that the country stands beside you. Do you believe him?"

Connie London: "Yeah, I believe him, because here in Texas, they have truly been good to us. I mean-"

Reynolds: "Did you get a sense of hope that you could return to your home one day in New Orleans?"

London: "Yes, I did. I did."

Reynolds: "Did you harbor any anger toward the President because of the slow federal response?"

London: "No, none whatsoever, because I feel like our city and our state government should have been there before the federal government was called in. They should have been on their jobs."

Reynolds: "And they weren't?"

London: "No, no, no, no. Lord, they wasn't. I mean, they had RTA buses, Greyhound buses, school buses, that was just sitting there going under water when they could have been evacuating people."

Reynolds: "Now, Mary, you were rescued from your house which was basically submerged in your neighborhood. Did you hear something in the President's words that you could glean some hope from?"

Mary: "Yes. He said we're coming back, and I believe we're coming back. He's going to build the city up. I believe that."

Reynolds: "You believe you'll be able to return to your home?"

Mary: "Yes, I do."

Reynolds: "Why?"

Mary: "Because I really believe what he said. I believe. I got faith."

Reynolds: "Back here in the corner, we've got Brenda Marshall, right?"

Brenda Marshall: "Yes."

Reynolds: "Now, Brenda, you were, spent, what, several days at the Superdome, correct?"

Marshall: "Yes, I did."

Reynolds: "What did you think of what the President told you tonight?"

Marshall: "Well, I think -- I think the speech was wonderful, you know, him specifying that we will return back and that we will have like mobile homes, you know, rent or whatever. I was listening to that pretty good. But I think it was a well fine speech."

Reynolds: "Was there any particular part of it that stood out in your mind? I mean, I saw you all nod when he said the Crescent City is going to come back one day."

Marshall: "Well, I think I was more excited about what he said. That's probably why I nodded."

Reynolds: "Was there anything that you found hard to believe that he said, that you thought, well, that's nice rhetoric, but, you know, the proof is in the pudding?"

Marshall: "No, I didn't."

Reynolds: "Good. Well, very little skepticism here. Frederick Gould, did you hear something that you could hang on to tonight from the President?"

Frederick Gould: "Well, I just know, you know, he said good things to me, you know, what he said, you know. I was just trying to listen to everything they were saying, you know."

Reynolds: "And Cecilia, did you feel that the President was sincere tonight?"

Cecilia: "Yes, he was."

Reynolds: "Do you think this is a little too late, or do you think he's got a handle on the situation?"

Cecilia: "To me it was a little too late. It was too late, but he should have did something more about it."


Reynolds: "Now do you all believe that you will one day return to your homes?"

Voices: "Yes" and "I do."

Reynolds: "I mean, do you all want to return to your homes? We're hearing some people don't even want to go back."

Mary: "I want to go back."

Reynolds: "You want to go back."

Mary: "I want to go back. That's my home. That's all I know."

Reynolds: "Is it your home for your whole life?"

Mary: "Right. That's my home."

Reynolds: "And do you expect to go back to the house or a brand new dwelling or what?"

Mary: "I expect to go back to something. I know it ain't my house, because it's gone."

Reynolds: "What is the one mistake that could have been prevented that would have made your lives much better? Is it simply getting all of you out much sooner or what was it?"

Mary: "I'm going to tell you the truth. I had the opportunity to get out, but I didn't believe it. So I stayed there till it was too late."

Reynolds: "Did you all have the same feeling? I mean, did you all have the opportunity to get out, but you were skeptical that this was the really bad one?"

Unnamed woman: "No, I got out when they said evacuate. I got out that Sunday and I left before the storm came. But I know they could have did better than what they did because like they said, buses were just sitting there, and they could have came through there and got people out, because they were saying immediate evacuation. Some people didn't believe it. But they should have brung the force of the army through to help these people and make them understand it really was coming."

London: "And really it wasn't Hurricane Katrina that really tore up the city. It was when they opened the floodgates. It was not the hurricane itself. It was the floodgates, when they opened the floodgates, that's where all the water came."

Reynolds: "Do you blame anybody for this?"

London: "Yes. I mean, they've been allocated federal funds to fix the levee system, and it never got done. I fault the mayor of our city personally. I really do."

Reynolds: "All right. Well, thank you all very much. I wish you all the best of luck. I hope you don't have to spend too much more time here in the Reliant Center and you can get back to New Orleans as the President said. Ted, that is the word from the Houston Astrodome. And as I said, when the President said that the Crescent City will rise again, there were nods all around this parking lot."

kenny b
 
when they knew that storm was coming, they should have evacuated the city, those who didnt have the means to leave should have been bused out. if they can do it after the fact, they could have done it beforehand. those who refuse to leave? leave'em. anyone who could have left and didnt, i dont feel sorry for them in the least.
 
Don H........

Waxman as the source had nothing to do with it.

Those are documents that were requested from FEMA and were FEMA documents......they just happened to be on his site. I was hoping that most folks would skip the rhetoric and go straight to the docs....appears most did.

here it is from the FEMA site in a news release.

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/hurripamends.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/ops/hurricane-pam.htm
 
That FEMA link certainly is interesting. I like the part that says...

"State resources are adequate to operate shelters for the first 3-5 days. The group planned how federal and other resources will replenish supplies at shelters."

John
 
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