New military handgun

If anything new comes about:
It will have a safety
Have a hammer
Be a smaller caliber
Will have a safety
Will have a safety
Will have a hammer
Will have a more logistically viable cartridge.

If something meets this criteria then maybe. Each manufacturer already has guns that were for military trials.

Aside from 'operators', I don't see how this will help an army that can't afford printer ink or have food for soldiers. Yes, this is true, I've written congressmen over it.

I would not support a waste of money like this and I'd probably complain.
 
This is a question, not an argument...

So wait, are you saying the U.S. military has no more 1911A1s to issue and must acquire new ones?

Someone remarked that Colt "was delivering 12,000 pistols". Were those 1911A1s, or some other type of pistol? Again, not an argument, just asking for clarification.

Sounds like the Marine Corps came up with the best and most cost-effective answer to the problem.

And I DO agree that it's shameful for our armed forces and their families to be victimized by budget cuts inflicted on them by a White House and a congress filled with "GENIUSES" who, for the most part, don't know the front end of a weapon from its back end, OR theirs. I pray that THOSE problems be fixed very rapidly, but making them do their jobs with equipment in which many of them have no confidence is no solution, no matter how much money they "save".
 
The US Army recognized long before 1985 that the fleet of 1911's was in poor repair. Most had been arsenal refurbished twice and were then coming to the end of that. I had enlisted back then and was shooting them in the Reserves - there were still items like Union Switch and Railway 1911 a nothing still in the inventory. Those were 72 years old back then. The only other weapon still in service nearly that age were crew served, like the M2 .50 cal.

You can't keep shooting old guns forever - and fixing them up costs more and more as time goes by. It was determined it would be cheaper to upgrade to a "combat" pistol, and the rest of the armed world nations agreed on that definition as being double stack, double action. For all purposes of this discussion, we accepted the M9 Beretta in 9mm.

That was 1985 - 30 years ago. Again, the fleet of M9's is seeing a lot of wear and tear, they won't last 72 years. Weapons, like motor vehicles, last about a 20-25 year service life in the military and then they are replaced or updated. Since there ARE issues with the Beretta it's a good time to include them in a new specification and move on. Plenty of LEO and foreign military users have already shown the benefits and it's the DOD who lags behind adopting them out of a sense of "not invented here," and the obtuse conservatism of shooters who don't like anything until it's been proven in use for at least a decade.

Do we need grips in different sizes, yes. I shot the 1911 and it was fine, moving to the M9 was "meh" at best - large double stack grips in alloy with added panels over them aren't as small as can be made. The gun has an overabundance of safeties on it - per the parent Branch's oversight, the AIR FORCE, who was in charge at the time.

As for the budget, arms procurement is a drop in the bucket. Millions to us, but way less than the amount of oil burned in a few weeks of peacetime duty, much less the "light" bill for electricity. They go thru a formal process so Congress thinks they are punching all the buttons and being careful with money. Like, Congress is good at frugality?

Point being there will likely be a new combat pistol - and so what? It's not a primary combat weapon, it's token of rank for officers and something the MP"s need to establish authority for their presence in peacetime. The real guns are all SIG's in the hands of CID, etc and small operators use what they like anyway. It's really only of importance to those who think sidearms are some kind of magic bullet launcher and important on the battlefield - which, they are not. If you go into combat, be assured, officers take M4's, so do the MP's, and I don't remember Osama getting shot with a pistol, either.

Much ado about something that is basically a badge meant to impress onlookers - pistols in the military are simply showpieces. The last proven combat pistol was the 1911, specifically designed for a reason and used because of it. Which brings up that those which did survive Clinton having tens of thousands milled into scrap might be up for sale thru the DCM in the future. They have little else and will close their doors if they don't get them.

There are just enough for the DCM to sell on a very limited basis for a few years, and then, they will be gone. Don't expect matching numbers or even the correct slide on a frame - again, most went thru two refurbishings and were issued again, surviving Vietnam. Full metal pistols are more expensive and are unnecessary for long term use durability.

Expect a plastic gun with removable grip panels and service provisions for short frames and slides for concealed carry to meet how issue SIG's are used. With the FBI going back to 9mm and having to still toe the NATO line the talk about a different caliber is likely not going to happen because the vendor has to come up with all that in advance with his submittal for the testing phase. That's all the test ammo, the magazines, etc. Most will just ship 9mm as the window is so short.
 
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New US military handgun?

Adopt the Glock 19 or the CZp01, or maybe both. They can probably be mass purchased at $300-350 per gun.

The only reason for something new and innovative that I can think of, would involve a round designed to deal with body armor. I don't know if that's much of a priority in the thinking on this subject.
 
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Kosh I see you had a good time dissecting my post. Thats OK thats why I put it out there.:D

My son is an aircraft mechanic in the navy and works on the Hawkeye and some of the helicopters they have. I asked him if he got any training on firearms in boot camp. He said very little. He never fired an M-4 and had one training session with the Beretta 9mm.

I don't follow what the military does simply because I have no input into their choices. You can talk about them all you want on internet forums and they will never ask for your opinion or mine. So I don't worry about what they do.

As for the FBI they seem so wishy washy on what they require in a handgun and ammunition I stopped listening to them a long time ago.

I doubt the military will ever wholesale issue a 1911 again. If they did change back to a 45 round I am guessing it would be in a double action pistol not the 1911 style. Too bad. The 1911 is a hell of a gun.

As for the 45 vs the 9mm it has been done to death. Both have plenty of documented failures to support the claim that no handgun is totally reliable for one shot stops. Why anybody takes one shot when there are still more rounds on board is beyond me. I say empty the damn gun into them. That should do it.

Thanks Tirod for your excellent post #23.
 
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To the military in general the pistol is something for police use (MPs, CID, etc) and for officers as another badge of rank.

We recognized, back in WWII that the carbine was a better weapon choice for service troops than a pistol. As far as mission success is concerned.

But the personal handgun is a very important piece to the individual soldier, when they are actually allowed to have one.

When I carried an M16A1, any pistol, even a .38 snub nose would have been a great comfort at times. No rifle or carbine is a great comfort to me, when I'm in my sleeping bag. A pistol is. Because it could actually be used, and might just save my life.

Our .45 Auto filled the role of combat handgun and personal protection handgun pretty well for a very long time. It got a reputation for working well under all kinds of adverse conditions. It got that reputation, not because it worked flawlessly (which is what the legend became) but because it worked better (more often) than anything our enemies used.

it is rather ironic all the time, effort and money put into finding the "best" (??) handgun for military use, when only a miniscule fraction of the military gets anything more than a cursory familiarization with handguns.

Personally, I think our individual troops would be better off (better protected) simply by allowing them a personal (non issued) handgun. No need to give them (or force them), simply allow it, in addition to the issue weapon. Kind of like a CCW. If they want one, and its at their expense, simply don't prohibit it.

I don't know about today, although I believe a smart commander will grant a lot of leeway to guys on the sharp end, but up through Viet Nam, our guys could have "items" sent from home, or picked up in theater, carried and used when needed, without official censure. On return to garrison status, you're back to garrison rules, and a personal weapon would have to go in the arms room.

DO we still allow that today? I know they can't bring back war trophies (guns) anymore, so I've heard.
 
Someone remarked that Colt "was delivering 12,000 pistols". Were those 1911A1s, or some other type of pistol? Again, not an argument, just asking for clarification.

The 12,000 pistols being delivered are the new M45A1 Close Quarter Battle Pistols. They are modified, cerakoted Series 80 variants of the Colt 1911 Rail Gun.

They are very expensive in comparison to a Glock or M&P.
 
9x18_Walther said:
...the new M45A1 Close Quarter Battle Pistols... are very expensive in comparison to a Glock or M&P.
Although I think it's helpful to note a couple of things...
  • Military contract unit prices are usually for a "whole package" – they include spare parts, armorer training, field visits by manufacturer's reps, etc. Hence, per-unit prices are not directly comparable to the price you or I would pay at a gun shop.
  • The USMC contract for the M45A1 was very small by military standards, and AFAIK it was largely understood from the start that it would likely be a "one-off" contract, so the manufacturer would have relatively limited opportunity to spread out the R&D and (more significantly) contract procurement costs.
 
Semi auto handguns are really prone to failure. I've fired many. The beretta may have some problems, but the next semi auto will as well, I promise that.

Again, the beretta is the most reliable pistol I've used, at least that meets military specs..... There will not be a handgun that is issued to general troops that will not have multiple safety devices on it. I doubt a striker fired pistol would make it either.

Probably is a better pistol out there, just not one I've used.

But forget the 1911, let's go back to revolvers, those are even more reliable.
 
Again, the beretta is the most reliable pistol I've used, at least that meets military specs..... There will not be a handgun that is issued to general troops that will not have multiple safety devices on it. I doubt a striker fired pistol would make it either.
They introduced Glock handguns to the British army.
 
The British have lots of things we don't have.... As do the Chinese and Russians

Every major maker has military contract ready pistols. Even Taurus has had one.

Shouldn't be a great stretch to have other viable pistols suitable for military use. I think a striker pistol could make the grade, I just don't think the US army will accept a striker pistol. I could be wrong.

Polymer for sure will be on the next generation issued handgun.

I do understand the grip complaints on the beretta.
I like the open slide, it's partially what makes it reliable. I admit it can get dirty in there.

I would think a smaller caliber would be in the next standard issue handgun....

What about 5.7? Thought
 
Semi auto handguns are really prone to failure.

Which is why EVERY major Military in the world uses them. Along with 99% of LE agencies in the U.S. and MOST Police agencies on the planet:confused:

I used semi-autos in some of the worst areas in the world and taught at some of the best facilities in the country. Ive seen MILLIONS of rounds fired by tens of thousands of folks.

Every skill level,,, all kinds of makes and models. A good quality pistol, fed good quality ammo is every bit as reliable as a revolver. Especially if you factor in the ease in which an auto can be brought back into the fight if it does have a stoppage.

Most revolver stoppages require some time, skill and sometimes tools to fix.

Anyone that says revolvers are simpler mechanically then autos, has never seen a fully stripped S&W K frame laid out next to a stripped Glock

Right out of the Marine Corps i went to work for Brink's armored car. Ended up as one of their lead firearms instructor, before getting into professional instructing, LE and then Govt Contract work.

Ive seen alot of revolver failures...too many to say they are better then semi's
 
rickyrick said:
What about 5.7? Thought
In practical terms, this would require getting other NATO countries on board, at a time when many of them aren't particularly in the mood to initiate another major ground-up defense program at the behest of the USA (*cough* F-35 *hack*). ;)
 
I agree that good semi autos are reliable, I said that slightly tongue in cheek. That's because nearly every debate evolved into a reliability discussion. The fact that it auto-loads does make it inherently subject to malfunctioning, as with anything with moving parts. What you are doing with semiauto is weighing fire power and capacity against the slight(very slight) decrease in reliability.
You also take the more powerful revolver cartridges away and add the bonus of firing more shots per load and the fast reloading ability of magazine swaps.

Everything is a trade off.
You could have a big powerful cartridge, but the average person would scatter rounds everywhere.

So to steer this back on course, what features would be needed to replace the beretta?. Features that make a significant improvement over a serviceable beretta. I realize that an aging inventory would be a great time to field a new weapon. Let's say beretta presented it's basic design, but with a new frame to accommodate hand sizes. What else could beat it in competition. The reliability of the M9 sealed the deal way back when. I know there was issues with the slide.
 
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