New Member Heavy Barrel Help

C

clfergus

Inactive
I have been thinking about buying a new .308 bolt action rifle for tree stand and blind hunting that I could also take to the range and shoot for fun.

I had always hunted with a .44 mag heavy barrel rifle that I could shoot extremely accurate out to 130 yards. I also have other heavy barreled rifles in .22 mag and .223 that are tack drivers.

Moved to a .308 in a Ruger American and it is perfectly acceptable for hunting but it is a 1.5 - 2.0 rifle. I have tried numerous grains and manufacturers ammo and when I am shooting good the Sierra Gameking and Matchkings are the best.

I am interested in the Howa Multicam 24 inch threaded heavy barrel rifle as well as the Savage 10 FCP. I can't tell if the Savage is a realy heavy barrel based on the description online.

My budget is around 650.00 so both of these are in that range. Anyone have any advice on these two guns? I am leaning toward the Howa heavy barrel. Just wanted to get some opinions. I know some will say just stay with the Ruger which I plan on keeping but I just shoot a heavier gun much better for some reason.
 
" I just shoot a heavier gun much better for some reason."
A heavy barrel resists "wiggle" better than a light rifle. The "front heavy" rifle offers more recoil attenuation and lessens muzzle lift.That said, a heavy barrel profile does not automatically mean a more accurate rifle.
 
Savage has better odds, of better out-of-the box accuracy than the Howa, but Howa/Vanguard can be pretty accurate as well.
Consider building yourself the Savage if the barrel isn't exactly what you want, cost can be kept down by finding a donor rifle/ action (at the local pawn shops) and put a 20" bull barrel on if that's what you'd like...
 
Interesting... Yours one of the most inaccurate Rugers that i have heard of.

Betting you can whittle that down by at least a third with handloads.
 
I think what you need to realize first is the problem is with you, and not the rifle. I only say that because everything you mentioned you shoot well doesn't have near the recoil energy as your .308 Ruger American. The Ruger weighs around 6 lbs for the rifle before you scope it, andd depending on bullet the recoil from the .308 can be quite substantial in a lighter rifle.

You're going to have to concentrate on the fundamentals more to shoot that rifle as accurately as your others. Something like a PAST shoulder shield can also help tame the recoil so you can concentrate on shooting fundamentals as well. Adding weight to the rifle will help with the recoil as well, but this will change how your rifle handles as well.

I'm not saying don't buy another rifle, if you really want one go for it. I'm just saying think about the cause as to why your groups changed so much. Even buying a heavy barreled .308 you'll probably find it harder to shoot as well as the rifles you already own.
 
I guess I never really thought that much about how the reduced weight in the .308 and its recoil could cause my shooting fundamentals to be off. I don't consider myself to be recoil sensitive since I turkey hunt and a pattern session with my 870 and turkey loads can be brutal.

To be honest, I don't have the best bench rest skills. I just plop the rifle on top of my range bag and shoot. Should I try a small bipod? What rest would give me a better change at accuracy so that the crosshairs are as still as possible?

I guess a second question I should ask is, do .308 rifles get more accurate with a break in period? This Ruger American probably has only had 50-60 rounds through it. Maybe I haven't given it a chance to get settled in?

I am very intrigued by the Howa 24 inch HB. One of the main reasons is my wife has given me permission to buy it and that doesn't just happen everyday. Even if I do buy a new rifle I want to make sure and get the best gun i can for the money and evaluate what I need to change in my technique to get better accuracy. I really would like to go to the range and be able to shoot some 3-5 round groups at 100 yards under and inch. When you guys say to find a donor Savage action, where do you find the heavy barrels to go on those?

Thanks for the replies. This has helped me and given me more to think about.
 
Its really hard to assess someones shooting from a post, so any opinion is going to be unsupportable.

While you probably can improve with bench rest work, it sounds to me like you are pretty proficient.

The best help along those lines would be to get connected to someone at a range who is interested in helping. It does not have to be paid or professional, but you also have to evaluate what they offer.

Best is someone who offers suggestions, not have to. Each of us works differently and its like a quarterback, if he just does not throw the long ball well do you put in plays where he has to?

As far as guns, the Ruger has good reports, I have not shot one. I reload so I have that advantage I am not stuck with factory ammo.

If you can get a good shooter to try your gun that can sort out you from the gun.

I have shot a bit of factory match in my 308, it was ok, 1 inch area, but I can do better at 1/2 or a bit better with hand loads.

Heavy barrel guns do two things. They are more stable (rested, not so much if standing). They reacts slower to heat (take longer to get really hot)

Lighter barrels tend to be ok for 2 or 3 rounds and heat up and then start shifting.

Your Ruger is a better hunting gun, bench rest maybe not so much.

Yes a gun may break in a bit over time but not to the change of 1.5 to say 1 inch, let alone sub 1 inch.

Better to sort out what you want. You could buy a Savage Heavy barrel and it still would not shoot better than 1 to 1.5 inches with factory ammo.

Unless you reload its a throw of the dice. Unfortunately to get into quality reloads costs something in the area of $500. I know others will disagree, but I have been down the road, what was fine for hunting loads did not cut it for target and I had to add to my equipment. Some of that also depends on how much you want to shoot.

A good 22 is a great way to get into target shooting. You likely will want a Savage target 22 with a heavy barrel. Lower cost and good barrels that are heavy. Good trigger.

A lot of good 22 ammo is out there again (22s tend to be a bit fussy and what shoot well in one gun does not shot well in another). Mine likes the stuff that is $50 for 500 though it will shoot anything well enough for hunting if I was doing that.

If you do elect to buy another rifle be prepared that it may be a bit better but not that wonderful under 1/2 at 100.

Cabelass has their own store model Savage in a 12FV and a 10T you can look at.

Wait for a rebate if you buy one and better yet rebate and Cabell on sale. The marekt is packed and there are good deals regulary .

The 10T on sale and rebate is liek $550 (maybe a bit more). Heavy barrel, rail, kind of a tactical. A bit nicer as its shorter so its better for hunting. Threaded end. It has the Savage Acu trigger, Varming type (that is important, Savage standard acu trigger is a hunter and you can't adjust it down as low, in this case, 1.5 lbs for the Varmint. )

The other one that is more a fixed varmint and bench rest is the 12FV. 26 inch barrel,
also acu trigger down to 1.5 lbs. That has been under $300. Yo need bases for that one.

Longer term a nicer stock is my first upgrade. Boyds makes some very nice one in Laminated that looks very good. Thumb hole or what I call a Super grip which is a bench rest type.

The fit is very good, usually a bit of relief (clearance) on the rear tang and the rest sits nicely. I have a lightweight one on a 30-06 that really suits me. Not standard bench rest but it will do 1/2 MOA and better (usually I am the issue) with tuned loads.
 
Matchkings are not suitable for hunting anything but varmints.
The Savage FCP McMillan is a real heavy barrel . However, for hunting the weight of the rifle is what matters. And the FCP McMillan weighs 10 pounds. OK if you only shoot from a blind or stand. If you ever take it into your head to hunt elk(for example) where everything is 'up' 10 pounds will be far too heavy. The MSRP is more than double your budget too.
The Howa Multicam's MSRP is more than $650 and that's with no sights. Several on Gunbroker within your budget though.
"...AccuTrigger down to 1.5 lbs..." That'd be unsafe for hunting.
 
Thanks for all of the info. This gives me many things to think through and focus on. I guess I hadn't ever thought about how it might be simply my gun just shoots 1.5-2.0 groups with factory ammo. When I watch the guys on youtube you just assume every rifle is capable of 1 inch groups.

I have been really wanting that Howa rifle that looks just like this but with the threaded barrel. I guess it would be a bummer though if it shot just as bad as my Ruger. I will say that the Ruger does open up after multiple shots due to the barrel heating up at the range so maybe this one wouldn't. The Howa seems to get stellar reviews online. Is it a good gun?

I have a fairly nice Leupold 3-9X40 scope I could put on it which I would think would be ok for 100 yards.

8477.jpg
 
3-9 is fine for 100 yards.

I don't have nor know anyone who has a Howa, will leave to theirs to fill that in.

Price I suspect is a fair bit higher than a Savage. It looks a lot like the 10T sand the threaded muzzle (not an issue I think) or the rail.
 
"...AccuTrigger down to 1.5 lbs..." That'd be unsafe for hunting.
Click to expand...

The accu trigger in the Varmint type can be adjusted to 1.5. It can be adjusted up to 2.5 (or 3.5 forget which)

You can shoot the high end and its still a good trigger with crisp clean break.

Not the best but good enough for sub 5/8 MOA consistency
 
Last edited:
One thing that might help is space your shots out over several minutes. Helps to keep the barrel temp down. Here in Tucson, when shooting during a 110* range day, I may have to wait as ten minutes between shots to maintain an even temp.

Another thing, what are you using for a target? Black round bullseyes and little red dot sticker may suit some but I prefer a two inch black square that has a one inch white square in the center. Which square I use depends on what cartridge and scope set up I'm shooting. Most of my hunting guns use the 2" square and my varmint rifle the one inch. I keep a master target on hand and when I run low I hit one of those printing places and have a batch of 500 run up. Not all that expensive. I get much tighter groups with my target.
Paul B.
 
I don't know where you live. If your close to me i'm willing to help. (central PA)

The guys on Hunt Talk Forum love the Howa. They are sponsored by Howa. And if you ask, actually not that many members have a Howa.

I had a first gen Vangard (made by Howa). Worst gun i ever owned. Was only gun i was glad to sell.

Dick's/Field & Stream have the Savage 11VT. Special make up for them.
They go on sale every now and again for $499, plus Savage just got done with a $100 rebate.

Lugging a 10lb rifle into the woods is definetly not for me. But i've been known to hike 4 miles away from the truck. Ounces = pounds then.

If your hunting/shooting at only 100 yards, then 2" is definetly minute of bambi.
 
The problem isn't the rifle, or the loads. If you want a "different" rifle that is fine, but figure out why you're shooting so poorly 1st. None of the options you're considering will be any more accurate than what you have.
 
clfergus said:
I guess I never really thought that much about how the reduced weight in the .308 and its recoil could cause my shooting fundamentals to be off.
Click to expand...

I don't know what grain bullet you shoot in your .44 Mag rifle, but you'd have to shoot a 300 grain bullet at 1500 fps in a 7 lbs rifle to come pretty close to a 150 grain bullet in a .308 rifle that weighs 7 lbs. I know your .223 and .22 WMR will never come close to the recoil energy or velocity of your .308. This is why I really believe you need to check your shooting fundamentals.

It won't hurt to give your rifle a once over and check torques, but IME 90% of the time a brand new rifle isn't accurate because of what the shooter is doing. I do believe your Ruger is probably better than a 1-2" rifle though. If you had purchased a rifle off of the used rack that looked well loved, I might be inclined to blame the rifle first.

Like others suggested have someone watch you shoot if possible, if not use your smart phone to video yourself. I'm betting that if you do either of these and pick apart how you're shooting you'll find the problem pretty quickly. I've done this a few times when my shooting has gone south, or even had someone else get behind the rifle and shoot a group or two and compare them to mine.
 
Just for info, one of the worst grouping rifles I ever fired was built (not by me) for a target shooter who was not pleased to find that its best groups ran 4-5 minutes. And one of the most accurate was a beat-up Mauser 98 with a pencil thin "no name" barrel in .308 W that would shoot 1/2 minute all day. It just ain't supposed to work that way!

Jim
 
True.

But the odds are in favor of a heavy barrel built right doing better than a thin barrel that is way on the edge of the margins of what can occur to and in a barrel.
 
What rest would give me a better change at accuracy so that the crosshairs are as still as possible?
Click to expand...

In a couple words....sand bags. You really cannot begin to get close to accuracy potential without 4 things....
1) shooter has to know the steps to consistently pulling the trigger
2) rifle must be capable of producing the desired accuracy
3) optic must be capable of reliably aiming the rifle to the same point of aim each time the trigger is pulled
4) rest....the rest must be capable of supporting the underside of the rifle and allow it to complete its recoil stroke with only The shooters shoulder in it's path.


For rests, sand bags with a leather or nylon surface are best. An adjustable rest is nice, but not required. Can you hold the crosshairs perfectly still? LINK
 
That is certainly true and valid.

The sand bags (rest) ensures short of a lead sled that you have eliminated as many motion factors as possible.

I used a front and rear bag. It took me a while to get used to adjusting the rear bag, but once thats mastered its a real assist.
 
Thanks for the links to the bags. Going to order these and try them out.

Very good information for me in this thread. Thanks to all. I have decided that I am going to keep my Ruger American for hunting and try all of the suggestions to improve my groups.

I am still going to buy a heavy barrel to play with at the range. I have checked into the Dicks Savage 12fv. Doesn't seem like anyone around me carries it and it appears to be phased out by Dicks.

At this point I am looking at these three rifles:

1. Howa 1500 with 24 inch cerakote Heavy Threaded Barrel - $639.00
2. Howa 1500 20 inch Heavy Barrel, no thread - $550.00
3. Savage 10T Heavy Threaded 24 barrel at Cabela's - $649.00 prob wait for sale
4. Remington AAC SD. 20 inch Heavy barrel $632.00

Not sure if I want a 20 vs 24 inch barrel and why I would care aside from velocity. Would seem that at my max of 500 yards it wouldn't matter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top