New Jersey sues Sig Sauer over "malfunctioning" P229's

Thank you for the information.

No one guarantees a 100% reliable, never fail to operate correctly, pistol.

What is the difference to a court between a good faith effort to fix a problem, and failing, (within what amount of time?) and not making a "good faith effort", I wonder?

I'm sure, at some point, it must have gotten nasty between SIG and NJ, because, if it doesn't, one doesn't go to court.

If there is a "money cheerfully refunded if unsatisfactory" clause in the contract, then NJ should get their money back. If NOT, then who's fault is that, really????
:confused:
:rolleyes:
 
I'm sure, at some point, it must have gotten nasty between SIG and NJ, because, if it doesn't, one doesn't go to court.



If there is a "money cheerfully refunded if unsatisfactory" clause in the contract, then NJ should get their money back. If NOT, then who's fault is that, really????

:confused:

:rolleyes:


Funny thing is SIG's statement that was quoted on TFB...

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/05/24/sig-sauer-responds-new-jersey-state-police-lawsuit/

Makes you believe that they are still trying to fix the P229s, even though Glocks have been going into Troopers' holsters for about a year.

For the second point, as a NJ tax payer, why should all of us pay for holsters that the NJSP won't use, because SIG could not get working sidearms out to Troopers? You really think any contract is going to be honored if you get high rates of defective firearms... and the manufacturer can't fix them when they come out and see the problem (the P229s with the old extractor, which were originally tested to get the contract, were swapped in... and still had major issues). If SIG is saying P229s do not work with Speer Lawman 124 grain ammo... sorry, but I'll never buy a classic SIG (has worked in my German P228... don't know about my P938, but works with similar practice ammo).
 
This is just another example of an uber-liberal, gun-negative political entity trying to get publicity by filing suit against a major gun manufacturer, pure & simple.

^^^^^ THIS!

Let me add that it is very possible Sig was not compliant and a case could be made for NJ to get it's money back I suppose, but surely a suit like this is more likely in places like this to occur regardless of facts which at this point we really do not know.
 
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Screwball said:
For the second point, as a NJ tax payer, why should all of us pay for holsters that the NJSP won't use, because SIG could not get working sidearms out to Troopers? You really think any contract is going to be honored if you get high rates of defective firearms... and the manufacturer can't fix them when they come out and see the problem (the P229s with the old extractor, which were originally tested to get the contract, were swapped in... and still had major issues). If SIG is saying P229s do not work with Speer Lawman 124 grain ammo... sorry, but I'll never buy a classic SIG (has worked in my German P228... don't know about my P938, but works with similar practice ammo).

Several things about this story seem strange.

I think I've read everything (the details) posted here. SIG claims in their response to the suit that the problems only occur with practice ammo. One participant here said the practice ammo was steel-cased. I wonder how much NJSP paid for the practice ammo? (Wonder if they considered suing the ammo maker, or whether SIG had offered to buy the ammo and/or replace it with stuff that worked? (I suspect SIG could have sold the "recovered" ammo and recovered at least part of that cost.)

From reading the NJSP lawsuit we can see that they bought 3,000 guns and 8,400 holsters for about 1,600 sworn officers. It appears that the NJSP paid about $550 per gun after trade-ins for the older duty guns. If the NJSP had about 1600 trade-in guns, they got less than $120 each for them, and if there were twice as many, they almost gave them away! Around here, duty guns are seldom sold to the officers who used them for less than $300 (or the amount the new seller typically offers as trade-ins, sometimes more).

If I were a NJ taxpayer, I might want to know why the NJSP bought twice as many guns as they seemed to need? Even if they were on a big hiring kick, that seems excessive. I notice, too, that they bought almost five times as many holsters. Twice as many might seem rational, if everyone had both on-duty and off-duty holsters, but five times as many?

I wonder what special characteristics that led the NJSP to specify an "elite" model of the P229 was matched by the Glocks they got as a replacement? I wonder whether the replacement Glocks and holsters were a LOT cheaper? I wonder, too, whether the NJSP might have other motives with their lawsuit than just getting the guns working right.

The suit may NOT be a slam-dunk for the NJSP.
 
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Reputable poster on another site claimed that the NJSP use Speer Lawman for practice/qualification and Speer Gold dot for duty ammo. Speer recommends Lawman for "the most realistic, effective practice possible". If so, it sounds like the NJSP made pretty decent ammo choices to me.

From the Speer website:

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/lawman.aspx

LAWMAN®
Lawman—Quality and Performance for Training
Speer® introduced Lawman to sport shooters and law enforcement officers back in 1968. Today, the line encompasses all of our brass-case, general-purpose training ammunition. With excellent accuracy and ballistics similar to Gold Dot® loads, it offers the most realistic practice possible.

http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/golddot.aspx

GOLD DOT®
Our Ammunition
Speer® Gold Dot® ammunition’s proven reliability has made it the No. 1 load for law enforcement, and we offer the same performance to you in Gold Dot Personal Protection and Short Barrel® Personal Protection. For the most serious training, choose Lawman® and Lawman Clean-Fire® ammunition. Both offer ballistics similar to those of Gold Dot loads for the most realistic, effective practice possible.
 
New Jersey sues Sig Sauer over "malfunctioning" P229's

I read everything posted here. SIG claims in their response that the problems only happened with practice ammo. I wonder whether the NJSP might have other motives with their lawsuit than just getting the guns working right. They certainly paid a lot for holsters!!



One participant said the practice ammo was steel-cased. (I don't know for sure that such was the case.) But the case may NOT be a slam-dunk for the NJSP.



Wonder how much NJSP paid for the practice ammo? (Wonder if they considered suing the ammo maker, or whether SIG had offered to buy the ammo and/or replace it with stuff that worked? (I suspect SIG could have sold the ammo and recovered part of the cost.)


NJSP DOES NOT use steel cased ammo. They use Speer Gold Dot for duty, and Lawman for training (both 124 grain). NJAG guidelines state that NJ L/E must use training ammo similar to what their duty ammo is... which usually equates to the same manufacturer. Speer doesn't make steel case. Even if it were the case, their Glock 19s are functioning with the same ammo.

NJSP was also a previous SIG user; P228s. They wanted more capacity (15 verses 13 rounds), a weapon light, and a similar gun in regards to reliability. SIG put a P229 in the running... and it passed. Problem is that the gun that passed used the old style extractor... and the one they received was the long style. And even when SIG offered to switch them with, the P229s with the old extractor had issues, as well. They also couldn't get the 1,000 promised by they date they promised... so that second batch of P229s were lower in number than promised, and still had issues.

In regards to holsters, don't know what the numbers break down, but they have about 2,500 sworn personnel. Belt holsters, drop legs, and then magazine carriers.
 
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I have lost count how many times I have said this on this forum. So many years and so many threads stating the exact same thing. It was true when I started and it is true today. Todays Sig Sauer is not the Sig Sauer of old. They are now an excellent marketing company that happens to make guns. They have become the Bose headphones of firearms IMHO. Bose headphones suck when you compare them to brands like Sennheiser or Bowers and Wilkins but ask the avg person who makes the best headphones they will say Bose or maybe these days Beats which are the same level of crap. They are no longer a old school German manufacturer of some of the best firearms in the world.

What they are today is an upscale mass marketer of great looking decent performing pistols. Kind of remind me of Kimber for some reason. ;) They have gotten here because the old way did not make any money. The company and the processes that made the NJSP's P228s is long gone. It has been replaced with a streamlined manufacturing process using MIM and CNC machining to squeeze out every penny out of every pistol. They have become masters of economy of scale and you can see it up and down their product line.

When you look at the production changes of classic P series pistols like the P228, P229, P226, P220, P239, P225 etc... none of them where made to make the pistol better. They were made to make the pistol more efficient to manufacturer. For those who have been there or in the know the production at todays Sig is done at a blistering high volume pace where the avg line worker is constantly balancing QC with moving units down the line. I know that Tunnelrat can speak to this.

Sig used to be an old world small to medium sized gun maker when compared to people like FN Herstal or S&W. They are no longer small in terms of size or production numbers. They are now a high volume mass producer who need volume to make money. They make money by producing everything quickly and efficently and moving that metal down the distributor chain and to Govt and civilian contracts. The model only works when you move a lot of metal.

How does this all relate to the NJSP's P229? Well they changed the extractor once the pistol was approved. The change did not make the already tested tried and true P229 more reliable. It made is cheaper to manufacturer because they started an external extractor design. Prior to this change the P series guns used internal extractors but these cost more to make and more to install on the line. They IIRC could not MIM this part. They tried and they failed.

All P series pistols went to external extractors from internal ones. Originally the short ones were used and ran well but they switched to the long, to save money via economy of scale IMHO, and started to have problems.

Short Extractor: http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-extractor-p-series-new-style-external.html

Long Extractor: http://www.topgunsupply.com/sig-sauer-extractor-p-series-new-style-external-long.html

So NJSP I am willing to bet tested short extractors and then got delivered long extractors. Look it up many dedicated Sig shooters avoid the long extractors. Also the shorter extractors are easier for the end user to service the extractor.

IMHO it does not matter what ammo the NJSP is using even though that seems to have been cleared up because the pistols worked via testing and failed once delivered after a model and design change. On top of that because of the move the metal volume model Sig now runs under they could not fit the new replacement guns into the production lines in the promised time frame. To me that it telling. Also it is unclear that Sig was ever able to deliver and number of pistols which were as reliable as the ones tested.

Now this does not mean that Sig still does not make good guns. For the most part they do. Most will run well and never give end user any trouble. I really like the P320 and will eventually get a Legion P229 or P226 but I buy them with open eyes. I still shoot my older P228s more than any other Sigs. Hopefully the 3 I own will out last me.

The current Sig Sauer is not the old school Sig Sauer. It is now Sig "Cohen" Sauer and you have to understand what that means. I give Cohen credit he saved the company but in order to do that he had to leverage the old school craftsmanship and name while delivering new world mass produced products. So far it has worked. It got them the US Army Pistol contract I just hope they can deliver for all those involved.
 
I had one SIG P229 from 2010 commit suicide on me when the slide began eating the frame because it was out of spec. SIG failed to make it right by me because I had purchased it used.

Granted, I took a year off SIG Sauer and purchased the same model Elite Dark P229 but 2 years newer and it's been fine. I also got myself a SIG M11-A1, which has also been great. I have a total of 11,000 through my old P226 (which I sold) and 20,000+ with Classic SIG P-Series in general over the course of 10+ years. So, I went back to them for the sole purpose of being proficient with them. But that bad taste never really left, it's forgiven but not forgotten.

Disenchantment, if you will.




That is certainly a bunch of crap and I remember you posting about it a couple times. By the nature of my job I am forced to deal with customer service issues far more than I would like to. You can't make them all happy and a lot of times customers have demands that are way off the charts.

On the other hand when a component is obviously out of spec any company who refuses to fix the problem has serious upper management issues. If it had been me I probably would tried to escalate my complaint up to one of the VPs explaining how much their quality has gone down hill over the years. Maybe they don't care anymore, not really sure.

I know you have owned a bunch of Sigs over the years as I have and I always tell people the company has really went to hell over the last 15 years, compared to what they used to be.
 
I know this is about a different model, but I guess they have some production problems. This is not the first time Sig finds themselves in somewhat hot swaters. In 2011 they lost a contract with the Dutch national police for 40.000 pistols, the Sig 250. Sig could not deliver the required quality and thus lost the contract. According the documents the government would fear for the lifes of the cops in the street. Eventually Walther won a new contract with the (facelifted) P99.


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...d-unsafe-dutch-police-pistol-drama-continues/


http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/general-discussion/18607-bad-news-sig.html
 
Look at comment on the Truth about Guns comment section.


Eagle Point Gun/T.J.Morris & Son says:
May 27, 2017 at 19:20
This is the third and last time I will try to answer the questions. If people won’t read what I write, I cannot help them. I sold them the weapons and I sell them quite a bit of ammunition. I am the State Contractor for weapons and/or ammunition in a dozen States. They carry Speer 53618. Worked fine in the 228 and worked fine in the 229’s.

They practice with the Speer 53651. Worked fine in the 228’s. Would not reliably cycle the 229’s. Neither would the Federal AE9AP. Neither are cheap.

Sig identified the problem. They agreed to replace the slides. They replaced the first 200 slides. They worked flawlessly. Then there was a personality conflict between upper echelons of the NJSP and Sig and after the problem was fixed, someone went to Glock out of spite after the NJSP armorers were over-ruled.

End of story.

Thomas J. Morris III
Major USMCR (retired)
Member NJ/PA/OH Bars
Instructor Gloucester Co. Police Academy (NJ) 26 years
Eagle Point Gun/T.J.Morris & Son
1707 Third Street
Thorofare, NJ 08086
PH 856-848-6945
FX 856-384-2938
Reply
 
WVSig: thanks for sharing that info.

In an earlier response, I said I suspected there was more to the story than had been stated. Seems there was.

It was BRAVE of Mr. Morris to be as candid about the situation as he was. Doing so may have damaged his ability to do business with the NJSP in the future -- even though his recounting doesn't place blame, just explains where it occurred.
 
SIG is hitting back, blaming it on the cheap ammo the NJSP apparently used. This is gonna being a interesting legal battle.
I guess we will have wait and see how this plays out. NJSP says there were problems with their duty ammo, too, but Sig says otherwise in their press release. The issue of the practice ammo should be relatively easy to resolve -- is it dimensionally within SAAMI specs or not, is the chamber pressure within SAAMI specs, and does the ammo produce velocities within SAAMI recommended range. These are hard numbers, not opinions. If the practice ammo meets all of the above, then it's not the ammo.
 
Sig identified the problem. They agreed to replace the slides. They replaced the first 200 slides. They worked flawlessly. Then there was a personality conflict between upper echelons of the NJSP and Sig and after the problem was fixed, someone went to Glock out of spite after the NJSP armorers were over-ruled.

I suspected something like that would be the real reason behind the switch to GLocks, and the lawsuit is a face saving attempt.

This kind of things has happened before, and most likely will happen again, and again, involving different things (not just guns). There is a contract, something doesn't work quite right (or does work normally but not to the (possibly unrealistic) satisfaction of some official) and a dispute arises.

Someone who believes their judgment infallible (often because they ARE a govt official) takes personal umbrage at something/someone about the supplying contractor, and cancels the contract out of petty personal spite, not ALLOWING the contractor every reasonable chance to correct things that they are actually responsible for.

This could be just a simple matter of a difference of opinion between what NJ official(s) believe SIG is responsible for, and what SIG believes it is responsible for, complexed by personality issues, and an overriding ego(s) to not admit being in error.
 
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