New Jersey sues Sig Sauer over "malfunctioning" P229's

I have owned a Sig p229 SAS gen 2, for eight years. I have shot .40 SW and changed the barrel, shooting .357sig. Hundreds of rounds fired, all factory ammo. Not one malfunction. At least two dozen Federal agencies, and scores of local law enforcement use Sig p226 or p229. That includes Navy Seals and the Texas Rangers. All I can figure is NJ cops aren't well trained, or they are using reloaded cheap ammunition.
 
NJ trained ?? I have what I think is the most reliable pistol , the HK P7. I never have had fear of malfunctioning for various reasons . NJ had the P7 also but IIRC troopers had a rash [ ! ] of leg injuries with them .:rolleyes:
 
Oldjarhead I have owned a Sig p229 SAS gen 2, for eight years. I have shot .40 SW and changed the barrel, shooting .357sig. Hundreds of rounds fired, all factory ammo. Not one malfunction. At least two dozen Federal agencies, and scores of local law enforcement use Sig p226 or p229. That includes Navy Seals and the Texas Rangers. All I can figure is NJ cops aren't well trained, or they are using reloaded cheap ammunition.
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Did you even bother reading the linked article?:rolleyes:


"...SIG SAUER came down to diagnose the issue, validated that it was a problem, and provided replacement extractor springs as well...."
 
New Jersey sues Sig Sauer over "malfunctioning" P229's

mete said:
NJ trained ?? I have what I think is the most reliable pistol , the HK P7. I never have had fear of malfunctioning for various reasons . NJ had the P7 also but IIRC troopers had a rash [ ! ] of leg injuries with them .:rolleyes:
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Actually, you remember wrong...

Their P7M8s were issued in 1983. In 1997, a Trooper was involved in a motor vehicle accident with a suspect armed with a shotgun, and his gun malfunctioned after the first round. Resulted in him losing his life. The suspect took his sidearm, and killed himself when units responded to him after he left the scene.

They changed out the H&Ks because they were worn out... not for any other reason. The S&W Model 99 was their next sidearm (switched H&K out in 2000), but had issues with them and went to the P228 instead. The P229 was mentioned in the link... currently, they are running Glock 19 Gen4s.

In regards to SIGs, I know NJSP Troopers loved the P228s. The ones that were working with the P7M8s loved them. The one guy I talked to who was in the academy with the S&W said they constantly jammed, but the P228 was a great change. If they had issues with the P229s, I'd probably side with it being a SIG issue, as the P228 was identical.
 
dogtown tom said:
Did you even bother reading the linked article? :rolleyes:


"...SIG SAUER came down to diagnose the issue, validated that it was a problem, and provided replacement extractor springs as well...."
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Did you even bother reading the linked article, which ended by also questioning the ammo used ...

The real issue here may be that the NJSP is too cheap to buy anything but steel cased “budget” ammo and would rather blame SIG SAUER for their woes than accept that they made a mistake and should spend a little more for brass cased rounds.
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Sounds like a lot of supposition, to me. I think I'll reserve judgement until all the facts are out rather than condemn either side based on a writer's unproven theories about what might be causing the problems. Of course, I say that as though my judgement makes a lick of difference here...
 
The real issue here may be that the NJSP is too cheap to buy anything but steel cased “budget” ammo and would rather blame SIG SAUER for their woes than accept that they made a mistake and should spend a little more for brass cased rounds.
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This seems to be the crux of the problem.
 
If they were using steel, I find it hard to believe that wouldn't be confirmed in the article or already brought up by SIG. One of the first questions SIG will ask if you call and mention problems with your pistol is what ammunition you are using. It would be bizarre to me if they hadn't done so here, both as it's a standard question and a pretty easy way to shift blame.

SIGs aren't perfect. I take courses at the Academy and all of the loaner pistols are, surprise, SIG pistols. I've seen a number have issues over the past few years. Now these are also likely pistols that get shot a lot and not serviced as often as they should, so you can't ignore that aspect (and that might be the case here too). But between those courses and people that I know that work at the factory I know there have been issues. This could be one example of that, or not. Like a lot of TTAG articles it's short on facts and long on theories. But hey it gets clicks and we all have to make a living.
 
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All I care about is that the officers get pistols they trust. Hopefully that happens quickly. The comment that SIGs P320 shouldn't be trusted as the new military service pistol is unwarranted, though, as it is a different firearm entirely and I have seen very few negative reliability reports.
 
gc70 Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Did you even bother reading the linked article?
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"...SIG SAUER came down to diagnose the issue, validated that it was a problem, and provided replacement extractor springs as well...."

Did you even bother reading the linked article, which ended by also questioning the ammo used ...
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Why, yes I did.
The difference is a statement of FACT (SIG validating that it was a problem) and pure conjecture on the part of the writer (that NJSP may be too cheap in buying budget ammo)
Do you understand the difference between facts and conjecture? Apparently not.:rolleyes:


Quote:
The real issue here may be that the NJSP is too cheap to buy anything but steel cased “budget” ammo and would rather blame SIG SAUER for their woes than accept that they made a mistake and should spend a little more for brass cased rounds.
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Being that few LEA use different ammunition in training than they carry and even if they did use 1930's Moldovan surplus ammunition....
SIG RECOGNISED AND VALIDATED A PROBLEM!!!!!!

I'll bet those guys from SIG were smart enough to question the type of ammunition being used.....mainly because they were actually there and observed the firearms malfunctioning.
 
sigarms228
Quote:
The real issue here may be that the NJSP is too cheap to buy anything but steel cased “budget” ammo and would rather blame SIG SAUER for their woes than accept that they made a mistake and should spend a little more for brass cased rounds.
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This seems to be the crux of the problem.
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1. No one here knows what ammunition NJSP were using.
2. SIG knows what ammunition was being used by NJSP.
3. SIG validated that there was a problem and apparently were unable to fix the problem.
4. Fanboys get their manpanties in a wad anytime anyone dares point out problems with their gun manufacturer of choice.
5. ALL gun manufacturers have problems at some time.
6. Glock wins another.
 
Does anyone know if these were American made SIGs? I think we all know that if these were true German SIGs, these malfunctions would be impossible. ;)
 
dogtown tom said:
The difference is a statement of FACT (SIG validating that it was a problem) and pure conjecture on the part of the writer (that NJSP may be too cheap in buying budget ammo)
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Yup.

When I read the TTAG article yesterday, it struck me as being packed with opinionated commentary and speculation, but woefully short on substantive facts that couldn't be gleaned from the original article on The Trace—the author's apparent lack of firearms knowledge notwithstanding.

Tom apparently noticed too. :D

Just to add a little opinionated commentary of my own... an MSM journalist's use of imprecise or stilted terminology doesn't necessarily mean that the factual substance of the report can be summarily dismissed. I'm really tired of firearms bloggers reflexively doing so without posing a genuine counterargument. :rolleyes:
dogtown tom said:
3. SIG validated that there was a problem and apparently were unable to fix the problem.
4. Fanboys get their manpanties in a wad anytime anyone dares point out problems with their gun manufacturer of choice.
5. ALL gun manufacturers have problems at some time.
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So true...!
Model12Win said:
I think we all know that if these were true German SIGs, these malfunctions would be impossible.
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LOL speaking of fanboys! :D
 
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gc70 Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Do you understand the difference between facts and conjecture? Apparently not.
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Yes, I do understand the difference between facts and conjecture.
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If so, why did you get them confused?



I also understand the difference between facts and claims in legal pleadings. Do you?
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Sure I do. But to be clear:
1. The article being discussed is the Truth About Guns article authored by the well known idiot Nick Leghorn. He's the one postulating about the ammunition being the cause of the malfunctions.
2. The article you link to at The Trace doesn't mention a darn thing about faulty ammunition, but nice try at obfuscating the issue.
3. While you may have read both articles, your comprehension and understanding of their content is lacking.
 
If I buy an expensive handgun and on my first range trip it malfunctions it must be because I have not broken it in properly (may take up to 500 rounds) or because it might be sensitive to ammo. Even if it malfunctions with most ammo as long as I can find one it feeds reliable it is quality.

If I buy a cheap brand and it malfunctions once in those 500 rounds regardless of what type of ammo its a piece of junk and I should have known better.
 
Does anyone know if these were American made SIGs? I think we all know that if these were true German SIGs, these malfunctions would be impossible.
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Good one, Model12Win. Even perfectionist Glocks bow down to Teutonic made SIGs. :D
 
It troubles me that the Sig Saur people were present when some of these failures occurred. If it had been a Beretta or Glock, I think they would have worked (and I'm not at all a fan of striker-fired pistols). Whatever the gun, it should have worked and the ammunition should have been stipulated in the reports.

Certainly other states use this gun and this is the first I've heard of a Sig having chronic problems with any ammo. Love our hate 'em, a Beretta normally eats anything you can fit into the magazine. My S&W 659 does that, too, as well as my 645. And that's what all modern autos should be able to claim as well.

I have pretty much a zero tolerance for jams in an auto...even with steel case ammo. If they don't work, they should do what S&W did. Rip the gun apart and put it together until it works. They did that with their 39/59s and I recall at the time people saying S&W was only a revolver company -- steer clear of their autos (except for the 41, which I just didn't like). But they ended up making some of the best centerfire autos ever made.
 
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