New Iraqi Government Doomed From Beginning?

3

38splfan

New member
Before I can begin my rant, let me post the link to the entire story:

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050724073409990002

Now then.
The article focuses on the new Iraqi Constitution which is being "rush drafted" in order to be completed by an Aug. 15 deadline and then presented to the Iraqi citizens for a vote in October. The initial topic was some unfairness to Iraqi women, as well as the heavy involvement of the Muslim religion in their new laws and government.

That, however is not what got my attention.

While not specifically addressing militias, the draft chapter would permit Iraqis to form only political parties and would ban individuals from possessing weapons.

"There is no place for militias," said al-Khuzai, a Shiite. "We have even made it clear for non-governmental organizations that they should not have any secret or military activities."
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While the article goes on to make it clear that they have only good intentions regarding the removal of tribal warloads, I could not help but notice this line in the qoute above:
and would ban individuals from possessing weapons.
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I see two possible problems here:

1. Iraq, like many other nations, is a society of arms. People there have been armed, in some form or another, since the beginning of their modern history. I doubt that they will give up that right easily.

2. Combined with the push to integrate religion so heavily into their constitution, it seems as though they are paving the way for a religious regime in Iraq that would force their unarmed populus to submit to a religious law, even if they choose not to practice that religion.

The other important part of the discussion was the issue of Iraqi citizenship.
The new constitution would prevent all Iraqi Jews who immigrated to Israel from regaining Iraqi Citizenship.

So, we have a Muslim-based government, an unarmed citenry, and a blatant attempt to limit the presence of other religions. Does something seem wrong here?

I went to Iraq. I'm going back in June of '06. Both times on the pretense of providing liberty and freedom to an oppressed people. If this new Constitution in it's current from is accepted, it defeats the prupose of all that has happened not only in Iraq, but in the region surrounding it as well.

Or, I could just be a nut as usual :) Any opinions, guys and gals?
 
What, I wonder could we look forward to if our constitution were ever to be opened for amending by a constitutional convention? I wasn't a big fan of invading Iraq, Afganistan yes but I think we may have lost the moral high ground by invading Iraq. However, now that we are there we need to get the job done. We didn't do the job right 40 years ago, lets hope we didn't forget that valuable lesson that cost 58,000+ lives. Iraqi's don't think like we do just as the Vietnamese didn't. Until we learn that what works for us may not work for others. I don't think we need to disarm those folks though, if we do we play right into the ones that want to see us fail hands.
 
What, I wonder could we look forward to if our constitution were ever to be opened for amending by a constitutional convention? I wasn't a big fan of invading Iraq, Afganistan yes but I think we may have lost the moral high ground by invading Iraq. However, now that we are there we need to get the job done. We didn't do the job right 40 years ago, lets hope we didn't forget that valuable lesson that cost 58,000+ lives. Iraqi's don't think like we do just as the Vietnamese didn't. Until we learn that what works for us may not work for others. I don't think we need to disarm those folks though, if we do we play right into the ones that want to see us fail hands.
 
I have this personal theory that freedom and democracy are nor for just any culture, especially when that culutre isn't ready for the responsibility that goes with them. I think that there are cultures that can not handle freedom and democracy.

I think that freedom and democracy work best when they are won by the people seeking them, because those people want them and do what it takes to earn them.

Just handing freedom and democracy to a culture that doesn't understand them, haven't earned them, and in large part don't want them, may not work for very long. They may well revert to what they know and understand and are comfortable with.
 
I think that freedom and democracy work best when they are won by the people seeking them, because those people want them and do what it takes to earn them
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Can't totally disagree with that. Democracy won't work in any culture and freedom can't be given it must be earned, but I think any group of human beings are capable of handling that freedom if it is not shoved down their throats or given as a door prize.

Private ownership of firearms did not prevent them from being ruled by a tyrant before, but maybe with this second chance they would act differently in the future.
I doubt it

It seems the final word is theirs however, if RKBA is important to them they will reject the new constitution at the ballot box.

It's their choice to make and live with
 
AFAIK they do have a flat tax and minimal controls on currency and foreign ownership. So they are light years ahead of the US on that.
 
Good points.

Good points, all. Thank you.

I think that freedom and democracy work best when they are won by the people seeking them, because those people want them and do what it takes to earn them.
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I could not agree more, and seeing it in that light does make things seem more acceptable. Or, at least, easier to understand.


AFAIK they do have a flat tax and minimal controls on currency and foreign ownership. So they are light years ahead of the US on that.
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That is correct as of my last "visit". I didn't see anything in the preliminary drafts that might change that. But, as the government and the society stabilize, the economy will change, although I would like to see it stabilized as is. It would then be one less hurdle in a very long and complex relay.

I posted my thoughts and asked for opinions because I find myself, of late, questioning my duty. Although I understand the long term goal, it seems now as though we are stagnant in the progress of Iraq. More visible growth would be a grand motivator for troops on the ground. The key word there is visible . While most of us are well informed on the condition and progress of the Iraqi infrastructure, many of us think that too much of it is political "feel-good" activity and not enough is being done to actually make things better for the Iraqis' quality of life, which is, to some extent, what we were sent there to improve.

Thanks for the thoughts, all.
 
Tough to change a culture/religion(and that is what we are attempting) overnite, in my opinion it will fall apart when we leave it really doesnt matter
if it's this year or next in order to control we would need a force there for many years.
 
I posted my thoughts and asked for opinions because I find myself, of late, questioning my duty.
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When I was in the Army I figured that my duty was to simply serve the USA in the best way that I could. The best way that I could serve was to simply obey the orders that came down to my level as well as possible. It became a very simple, but solid concept.

I could not change what was happening at any level except the level that I worked at, and by doing my best I changed what I was capable of. My duty to the USA was thus served, regardless of the overall mission, regardless of the big picture.

When the troops stormed Normandy Beach, they changed the world but I bet they didn't know it at the time. Think of it this way, your duty is to serve as well as possible at whatever task or mission is assigned to you. More than that no man can do.
 
So, we have a Muslim-based government, an unarmed citenry, and a blatant attempt to limit the presence of other religions. Does something seem wrong here?
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Well yes; it is the opposite of what Iraq was like under Saddam Hussein's government.

You say you were already in Iraq? What has become of the half-million or so Chaldean Catholics? Two mainstream news articles are all I have seen published or broadcast, one just before and one since the invasion.
 
Butch50.

Butch, thanks for the encouragement, you're quite right.

LAK, I honestly don't know.
I was in Mosul, northern Iraq. I didn't hear much about the Chaldean Catholics at all. I wish I could tell you more.
I will ask our brigade chaplain about it if I see him today (usually do) as he kept a very close watch on the religeous activities throughout Iraq.
Hope to post more for you tonight.
 
During the remainder of '05, I think that we should be content with the constitution being presented in August and voted on in October. We should continue to enforce security while re-establishing indigenous security and military structures. We should strive to make sure that all Iraqis are fairly represented in the new government and work to squash the malignant influence of Iran and Syria. In '06 we should declare our mission completed and leave the future of Iraq to the Iraqis, bringing home the great majority of soldiers there to a heroes welcome. If Iraq should slide into civil war, so be it.
We gave them every opportunity to embrace a semblance of modern democracy. The shame will not be with us.
 
Wow.

Good read, Rich.
It seems the article I have is just scratching the surface of this thing.
I had no idea some of that stuff was in there. It's just wild, what some of it says.

gburner. I think your plan sounds about right. Wish you could run for president :D
 
was a good analysis

American Soldiers have never lost the wars....... Its our doofus politicians all parties and persuasions included.

The politicos in washington say its a war of liberation to free folks and give them democracies when most of our Arab Allies are not democracies in the area. Which makes it hard to take the current administrations claim that this war is all about liberty and justice serious.

I held the opinion that War with Iraq might have been inevitable in the long run. My opinion that the current administration has done our soldiers an injustice by rushing to war there to soon. It is a no brainer that we can win a war with Iraq. That was the easy part... just that in thier haste to rush to war with Iraq there was no post war plan for Iraq. Now we seem to be chasing our tails around and around.

I just fear that our Troops are being sold down the river just so the politicans can score some political favor with the people.
 
Me...for president...eek!!!!

I'm the son of a SAC B-52 navigator. As Commander in Chief, I'd want to put warheads on foreheads 'cause (as my posts clearly demonstrate) I AIN'T THE MOST PATIENT, SMARTEST OR DIPLOMATIC SOB THAT EVER WALKED THE FACE OF THE EARTH. :) thanks for your support just the same.
 
What an incredibly dumb article. If you look at any institution, government, or association that has any standard at all you could find "parallels to Nazism." It is so overused as to be meaningless.
 
Rabbi-
I'd hope that you didn't come away from the article only with the reference to Nazis. I seem to think there was a bit more meat than that.

OTOH, I'm more than willing to see your own analysis of the Iraqui Constitution. Then I wouldn't feel so, well, "stupid". ;)
Rich
 
Rich Lucibella,
The Nazi business is referred to 5 times in the article. It is hardly just a passing reference. For good measure it throws in Jerry Falwell.
You could take any document and twist it beyond recognition through hyperbole and supposition. Taken that way the US Constitution could be seen as simply a whitewash by rich white guys to insure their positions of wealth and privelage. Actually it was read that way many times.
I dont speak or read Arabic and am not familiar with all the proceedings that led to this document. Thus I dont feel particularly qualified to analyze it. Then again the meathead who wrote that article would probably have trouble finding Iraq on a map, much less have any knowledge of its language or culture and that clearly didnt stop him.

For a view from someone who actually knows what's going on take a look at this transcript of an interview:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/counterpoint/stories/s1328824.htm
 
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