NEVER tumble cases with new primers.
- Thread starter NINEX19
- Start date
Even if federal sends an all clear, I'm still going to be unwilling to do this. It unnecessary, imo, and even with the blessing of a major brand behind it, it will still give me a wriggling feeling in my spine when I fired them. A half dozen years ago, I processed and primed a few hundred 9mm cartridges and just now founald the box. They were properly stored and will be fine. They look pretty ugly, and I'm going to shoot them ugly.
Let me make a prediction. Companies engage in butt coverage. You can't be even buy a can of coke without finding a warning on it "swallowing pop off tabs may cause severe injury". If federal gives approval, they will never be safe. Eventually someone will blow up with a federal primed load, and file a complaint. It is safer to yell NO WAY! Never! Firing ammo that has fragments of debris in it may cause cancer, instantaneous death, property destruction, and testicular rupturing!"
The more likely response may be "we cannot.support the practice. We know of no significance risk, but allowing the primer can ity to become partially blocked ma have unexpected results. Do so at your own site risk, preferably while using Winchester™ brand primers."
Let me make a prediction. Companies engage in butt coverage. You can't be even buy a can of coke without finding a warning on it "swallowing pop off tabs may cause severe injury". If federal gives approval, they will never be safe. Eventually someone will blow up with a federal primed load, and file a complaint. It is safer to yell NO WAY! Never! Firing ammo that has fragments of debris in it may cause cancer, instantaneous death, property destruction, and testicular rupturing!"
The more likely response may be "we cannot.support the practice. We know of no significance risk, but allowing the primer can ity to become partially blocked ma have unexpected results. Do so at your own site risk, preferably while using Winchester™ brand primers."
Metal god,
As the OP, I look forward to your testing results. Thanks for doing that as I am sure it will be valuable information for future reference.
I had not checked into TFL for the last few days, so I was not keeping track of this thread.
In the mean time, I decided to separate out all the cases that clearly had media jammed in the flash holes, de-prime, clean out and re-prime. It turned out to be around 70 cases so I spent about an hour doing this. Perhaps it was not the best use of time, but I really did not have much else going on while it was pouring down rain anyway.
As the OP, I look forward to your testing results. Thanks for doing that as I am sure it will be valuable information for future reference.
I had not checked into TFL for the last few days, so I was not keeping track of this thread.
In the mean time, I decided to separate out all the cases that clearly had media jammed in the flash holes, de-prime, clean out and re-prime. It turned out to be around 70 cases so I spent about an hour doing this. Perhaps it was not the best use of time, but I really did not have much else going on while it was pouring down rain anyway.
My main concern was about hang-fires rather than misfires.
Here is something to chew on. Would it be possible for a media impacted primer to smolder after being struck, for an inordinate period of time (hypothetically lets use 5-10 minutes) while not igniting the powder immediatly only to finally burn to the point of powder ignition?
Here is something to chew on. Would it be possible for a media impacted primer to smolder after being struck, for an inordinate period of time (hypothetically lets use 5-10 minutes) while not igniting the powder immediatly only to finally burn to the point of powder ignition?
I would hedge a bet that it's all but completely impossible for anyone to be able to answer that definitively either way, but it seems awfully far fetched. Given how much we can all agree smokeless WANTS to burn... minutes of hidden smoldering with no ignition of powder would seem to be quite unlikely.
The one thing I've been wondering is if a big enough sliver is stuck in the flash hole and sticking up/out towards the open primer pocket . Could that sliver be jammed up into the primer cavity when seated obstructing the anvil causing a hang fire or less then adequate ignition ??
Although not often I have come across a few pieces of media that were thin oblong in shape . In the right situation I could see those being pushed up into the primer cavity .
Although not often I have come across a few pieces of media that were thin oblong in shape . In the right situation I could see those being pushed up into the primer cavity .
Me said:
Alright back from the range and here are the chronograph results .
Normal rounds NO clog
FPS
831
error
831
843
844
858
847
849
842
875
Very clogged flash hole
FPS
error
842
error
error
837
859
835
827
852
860
I'm no math beautician but they look pretty much the same to me . They shot the same as well . The only thing I "believe" I noticed was that the clogged flash hole rounds had a slight sweet smell to them when fired (no kidding ) There was definitely a different smell when the clogged ones were fired .
For the record I will continue to make sure my flash holes are clear of obstruction but at the same time , I'll worry less about it .
'
The average velocities and SD's are so close on those that you are correct there is no statistically significant difference and the two sets of data could easily change places from one day's testing to the next.
Federal responded that they'd never done a study of the effect of media debris in flash holes. On the one hand, its disappointing not to have an answer. On the other, we may infer that they've had no indication that they needed to do such a study, and that suggests there isn't much to find, just as your experiment showed.
I did wonder if you had more reading errors in the blocked group because of the particle being fired over the sky screens. The difference in smell seems hard to account for, given the amount of added material involved. But burning corncob does have a distinct odor, as anyone who's tried smoking a corncob pipe can attest. It if was walnut, that has a burning odor too. It just seems so darn small to be having any noticeable effect.
Federal responded that they'd never done a study of the effect of media debris in flash holes. On the one hand, its disappointing not to have an answer. On the other, we may infer that they've had no indication that they needed to do such a study, and that suggests there isn't much to find, just as your experiment showed.
I did wonder if you had more reading errors in the blocked group because of the particle being fired over the sky screens. The difference in smell seems hard to account for, given the amount of added material involved. But burning corncob does have a distinct odor, as anyone who's tried smoking a corncob pipe can attest. It if was walnut, that has a burning odor too. It just seems so darn small to be having any noticeable effect.
A couple of things I want to add: If, like me, you are decapping and cleaning cases before resizing, and if you are not doing this in and ultrasonic cleaner or with stainless steel pins, you can get corncob or walnut in flash holes that normally is pushed through them by the decapping pin on the sizing die, assuming you leave it in place. I had one decapping pin break on stuck media years ago, but only the one. I concluded that it had protruded just enough to deflect the pin to the side, where it hit brass. But usually the pin ensures a clear hole.
Where the clog issue has occurred for me is on brass I have lubricated for sizing and which I subsequently clean off with corncob in a vibratory tumbler. For me this is not about powder contamination, but rather is about ensuring lube inside the necks doesn't affect bullet pull. I was at a gunshow awhile back and bought a bag of corncob that is 10/14 grit size. Normally we use 20/40 grit in cleaning cases (see photos, here). The 10/14 I have is just too big to fit into a flash hole and stick there, so that doesn't happen and is one way to keep it clear.
Another point is that recently we had one stainless pin user put up a photo of two stainless pins wedged side-by-side in a flash hole. That is unusual, as the pins are usually the 0.041/0.047 diameter range diameters and so a hole at least 0.082" should be required for that to occur. Most are about 0.069 (Lapua Palma 308W cases) to 0.079". However, some flash hole diameter uniforming reamers are 0.081", and that means that if you don't go perfectly straight in when using it, it could wobble open wide enough for pairs of the 0.041" pins to lodge in there. If you buy the 0.036/0.041 diameter pins by mistake, that wedge could happen, too. That sort of jam is something I definitely would not want in the path of the primer flash, nor would I want them shooting down my bore. They also could conceivably set off a primer during priming if they protrude into the pocket. So, check that no such jam is present if you are using SS cleaning.
Finally, though MG showed no significant difference in his sample with pistol cartridges, that does not mean a high power rifle is not going to have sensitivity to the presence of flash hole debris. The issue is not muzzle velocity but ignition timing. If ignition starts an extra millisecond late, small vibrations due to the striker or small gun movements due to trigger slap all have more time to affect the exact location of the muzzle at the bullet's moment of exit. This could introduce stringing, even with matching velocities coming out of the barrel. It would be an interesting experiment, but it's the kind of thing that will affect one rifle and shooter combination more than another, as well as one load more than another, so it might take a lot of shooting to measure the effects. I think it's easier just to inspect and keep flash holes clear in the first place. Even if it all turns out to amount to nothing, introducing additional variables has never been shown to be helpful.
Where the clog issue has occurred for me is on brass I have lubricated for sizing and which I subsequently clean off with corncob in a vibratory tumbler. For me this is not about powder contamination, but rather is about ensuring lube inside the necks doesn't affect bullet pull. I was at a gunshow awhile back and bought a bag of corncob that is 10/14 grit size. Normally we use 20/40 grit in cleaning cases (see photos, here). The 10/14 I have is just too big to fit into a flash hole and stick there, so that doesn't happen and is one way to keep it clear.
Another point is that recently we had one stainless pin user put up a photo of two stainless pins wedged side-by-side in a flash hole. That is unusual, as the pins are usually the 0.041/0.047 diameter range diameters and so a hole at least 0.082" should be required for that to occur. Most are about 0.069 (Lapua Palma 308W cases) to 0.079". However, some flash hole diameter uniforming reamers are 0.081", and that means that if you don't go perfectly straight in when using it, it could wobble open wide enough for pairs of the 0.041" pins to lodge in there. If you buy the 0.036/0.041 diameter pins by mistake, that wedge could happen, too. That sort of jam is something I definitely would not want in the path of the primer flash, nor would I want them shooting down my bore. They also could conceivably set off a primer during priming if they protrude into the pocket. So, check that no such jam is present if you are using SS cleaning.
Finally, though MG showed no significant difference in his sample with pistol cartridges, that does not mean a high power rifle is not going to have sensitivity to the presence of flash hole debris. The issue is not muzzle velocity but ignition timing. If ignition starts an extra millisecond late, small vibrations due to the striker or small gun movements due to trigger slap all have more time to affect the exact location of the muzzle at the bullet's moment of exit. This could introduce stringing, even with matching velocities coming out of the barrel. It would be an interesting experiment, but it's the kind of thing that will affect one rifle and shooter combination more than another, as well as one load more than another, so it might take a lot of shooting to measure the effects. I think it's easier just to inspect and keep flash holes clear in the first place. Even if it all turns out to amount to nothing, introducing additional variables has never been shown to be helpful.
The Happy kaboomer
New member
Like I said in my original answer......Its a non issue........I've loaded 1000's of primed rounds straight from the tumbler in all pistol/revolver/rifle calibers and will continue to do so.
Primers are very strong. I shoot wax bullets that are only primer powered and they hit pretty hard.......Ya'll need something else to worry about.
Primers are very strong. I shoot wax bullets that are only primer powered and they hit pretty hard.......Ya'll need something else to worry about.