Negligent discharge into the berm - lessons learned

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dakota.potts

New member
They say if you shoot long enough and are around guns long enough, you will have a negligent discharge.

I don't know if that's true, but I had one today. Not in the way I thought that they happen, but in a strange situation. All safety rules were followed (except a key one I'll point out later) and the round went downrange safely into the berm.

I went to the range with some friends today and we all brought guns for the others to try out. One of the guys I was shooting with had a Rock Island 1911 with Pachmayr grips and an aftermarket compensator on the barrel. I was shooting that and something was feeling strange about it. It had had a couple failures to extract and miscellaneous misfeeds (he said it had had some spring work done) and the trigger itself was weird. He described it as very light, but rather than light, it felt very short - very little travel, but gritty. Didn't like it much. It felt like it broke later than it should and required an odd amount of effort.

In the middle of one magazine, I hit a point where it felt like the trigger should be breaking and it wasn't despite putting more pressure on the trigger. I broke my firing stance slightly and turned the gun sideways to look at the ejection port and see if the previous round had jammed or if the gun had not returned fully to battery. I'd turned the gun fully to the side and looked at it for only about a second when it fired.

I was in the middle of a string of fire and everybody had eyes and ears on so they expected shots. The bullet did land in the berm. It did scare the guy standing next to me as well as myself but it went in a safe direction. What makes the discharge negligent is obviously that I didn't intend the round to be fired. I'm still not sure what happened, but the most likely answer is operator error. I think I've developed a habit of keeping my trigger depressed to the rear after shots and consciously waiting to release the trigger to control the reset. Obviously that caused some issues here. I share this not because I'm proud of it (it's pretty embarrassing) but because it emphasizes an important safety issue. I thought I had been ingraining in myself to never have a finger on the trigger unless I was ready to shoot, but hadn't stopped to think that the middle of a string of fire and stopping for even a second would be the case where I wasn't ready to shoot. Had I not been following other safety rules ( being aware of my backstop, keeping the firearm pointed in a safe direction) the situation could have been much worse than an increased heart rate and some embarrassment after the fact.
 
Based on your descriptions, it was probably too much of a trigger job. The sear-hammer engagement was too little and might even be negative. The sear caught the hammer by a hair, and it just slipped off. Releasing the trigger might be the same; the pistol fires by the slightest vibration it felt. Your following the safety doctrine kept it from turning worse. Shouldn't feel too bad.

-TL
 
Given the situation you describe, I would stick with the word unintentional rather than negligent.

pax
 
Brother...

If that ls the worst thing to happen with a gun...you are better off then some.

Let me throw my 2c in here. First i think it was a faulty gun. I would hazard a guess that the trigger overtravel screw was in too far. Causing you to have to excert undo pressure on the trigger to get the gun to fire. Thats the root cause from a distance based on what you wrote.

I dont know if you still had your finger on the trigger or not, but im glad to hear that the muzzle was downrange and nobody was endangered.

I'll relate my "ND" just for comparison. I personally dont think i was Negligent, but here goes.

I was working in Baghdad on a contract without any "TO" weapons. We were using some CZ variant pistols as well as assorted "local" longguns. Anyway, getting jocked up for an evenings drive to a nearby base, i was loading the pistol in my room.

Insert mag, rack the slide, proceed to chamber check the pistol, round in the chamber, release the slide and BANG. my finger was well outside the trigger guard.

Turns out that gun would let the hammer fall about 20% of the time the slide closed. It didnt stop at a halfcock...just fell like the trigger was pulled.

Anyway, i was pointing into a wall when i loaded and the bullet was stopped by the cinderblock construction. Nobody hurt.

My roommate looked at me a little strange, until i unloaded the pistol and worked the slide a few times, finding the issue.

A pistol can be faulty and cause a unexpected BANG even if we dont press the trigger. So....i think there ARE accidental discharges, not just negligent ones.
 
Give me a minute to get on my soapbox!!!

The term "Negligent Discharge" is overused and mostly used incorrectly on the internet in relation to accidental discharges. You had a unintentional discharge or possibly accidental. There was nothing negligent about it. If there were you'd most likely be in jail right now. Please look up the definition of negligence.

Any time a gun discharges it is either with purpose, or accidental. Sometimes, in very rare cases the accidents are caused by negligence. They are all accidental until proven to be negligent in court.

I understand the desire to hold gun owners accountable and some of us have chosen to redefine the term negligence in order to place the blame on the person instead of the firearm. Being involved in an accident does nothing to lessen responsibility.

There are car accidents every day, the person at fault is still responsible for any injuries or damages they cause. But to rise to the level of negligence is very hard to justify and it will almost always mean an arrest of the responsible party. The same standard should, and does apply to gun owners as far as the law is concerned.

Trust me on this, calling every AD a ND is going to be harmful to all of us and will be used by gun grabbers in order to pass gun laws. There have already been attempts to label anyone who even owns a gun as negligent. There are attempts to require insurance on gun owners to pay for their negligence.

When we do this we are helping our enemies.
 
If you were negligent, the muzzle would not have been pointed towards the berm.

Negligent means 'without thought or care'. I don't think that applies one whit in your case.
 
I really think it's a minor difference considering that the other rules of safety were still followed and the round was accounted for with nobody hurt. I call it negligent vs. accidental because I still consider it could have been caused by operator error in handling the trigger.

I didn't want to blame it immediately on the gun without investigating it further. There was just something very weird about the trigger. It almost felt like the safety was on and it hit a block, but then fired a second later. I did have another issue where I had accidentally flipped the safety on with my grip (I choked up very high on the beavertail as I do with my CZ). I wonder if maybe the safety lever had been bumped into position far enough to block the trigger but then release when I turned the gun, causing the pressure I had been putting on the trigger to allow it to fire.
 
Again: given the situation you describe, which includes not knowing the cause, I would stick with unintentional rather than negligent.

It's the middle ground between blaming a broken mechanical object, and blaming your own gunhandling. You rightly point out what you can (and should) improve in your gunhandling, but that doesn't mean this rises to the level of negligence. It really doesn't.

pax
 
The bullet stopped in the dirt downrange.
There are good reasons why there is a redundancy of safety in safe gun handling.We are human.We DO screw up.The Plan "B" backup,it was pointed in a safe direction.

I will offer a theory on the problem.My suspicion has to do with the trigger work along with the grip safety.I like the Philipino 1911's.But some of the small parts are....not top of the line.I generally put in a Cyl and Slide duty/carry grade kit,advertised as 4 or 4.5 lbs.I do not reduce or stone the engagement.I use it as made.I put in a new thumb safety,usually a Colt.

Those parts are good,they are dependable.There will be no "gritty"

I suspect what got you is the grip safety.Done right,its a positive on or off.
Done "not so right"the rear face of the trigger bow and the stop on the grip safety can slightly cam over each other.These edges have to say "Yes" or "No"....Not "Maybe".
An improperly fitted grip safety can hold the trigger from returning forward.Then pushing on the grip safety will cause the trigger tojump forward.
A hi-ride beavertail???The web of your hand,pushing up on the beavertail,pushes the safety "On" as your palm tries to push the safety "Off".Add an arched mainspring pushing the heel of the hand away,the grip safety may be only partially depressed.

You might look at that before it happens again.
 
Yeah, there's no reason to beat yourself up over this.
From the description of the situation, it sounds like it was more poor gunsmithing than negligence on your part.
One reason why buying a used 1911 or AR should be like buying a used car.
 
Bit of a mental malfunction but not an ND, in my opinion. If it were an IDPA match and I were the SO, I wouldn't disqualify. May even give you a reshoot. :)
 
Given your description and what we know about you from your time spent on these forums, I can't think of a large slew of people who I would RATHER have been holding that handgun.

I am far, FAR more worried about future people handling that specific pistol until a qualified person FIXES it than I am about the experience you reported.

You followed every single rule that matters! Because of your adherence to the four rules, you not only eliminated all risk -- you found (and in the safest possible way) demonstrated a serious problem with the work done on that pistol.

Because of your hands-on with that pistol, it has been identified as a serious problem waiting to happen.

I will get annoyed if you even try to beat yourself up over this!
 
The other true genius of the four rules is that there are only four. The NRA has like 10 or 12 and while all are great tips/info, all the extras cloud what matters MOST -- the four rules are perfect because they minimize collateral damage extremely well and managing just four of them is simple and clear. Easy to learn and not just easy to learn, but easy to SHARE and easy to TEACH.
 
I agree with that disagreement, they say the same thing about motorcyclists & crashing bikes. I've logged over 100k on two wheels and have never crashed a bike.
 
Well, turning the muzzle too far to the side on the firing line is not good. Which berm did you hit, the one behind the targets or the one separating the ranges from each other? Former you were OK. Latter and you turned the gun too far.

BTW- I have never had a negligent discharge in my life...and never will. I have had two accidental discharges, but I would never under any circumstances use the term "negligent discharge" as the word negligent has legal meaning. Admitting you were negligent means you are accepting legal responsibility. I don't want some cop writing down in his report that I admitted to being negligent. That means that no matter what the actual circumstances I have confessed guilt. No thanks. I may do something accidentally, but I would never say I was negligent. Became cool and hip a few years ago to say ND instead of AD. Terrible idea to use that term after a shooting incident.
 
I agree that it became common to move to ND from AD, but it sure seems like AD allows for way, way too little RESPONSIBILITY on the part of the person holding the firearm that discharge.

Kind of like a car wreck. We call them "accidents" but there is typically some negligence in them. I am a propenent of the idea that words absolutely have meaning, so I definitely see where you are coming from... but when it comes to careless discharges of firearms, it is a solid bet that the lion's share are negligent.

The ceiling of ANY/EVERY indoor shooting range is irrational evidence.
 
Our range is a public range with one standing "bench". The targets are clipped to chicken wire strung between several wooden posts. If you're at the pistol range, you all share one very large and tall berm. The firearm was turned sideways but not pointed at an angle - meaning the muzzle would have still been facing (roughly) where my original target was.

Although I take responsibility for any actions that arise as a fault of mine, it seems that the general consensus here is that the discharge was not negligent but arose from some other unintentional measure.
 
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