Need to buy a gun to find out if you can own one?
- Thread starter osallent
- Start date
Why not go to the sheriffs office and ask them to run your info. After Brady laws went into effect the state allowed sheriffs to give out permits to purchase for buying handguns, now it is req by law. Depending on your state they may be able to help you out.
If he wants to see if he can buy a gun, why doesnt he just go and buy one? A 100.00 rossi single shot shotgun would do it.
If he wants to see if he can buy a gun, why doesnt he just go and buy one? A 100.00 rossi single shot shotgun would do it.
FrankenMauser
New member
The laws in this state don't allow that as an option. BCI controls the information, and won't access it without a valid reason (firearm purchase, or LE inquiry).
And... we have no use for a Rossi single shot. Buying a firearm that won't be used is a waste of money. Another brother, and I, are in the market for a couple of firearms. We have spent a bit of time, trying to find a legal way to allow the "grey area" brother to try purchasing something for us. But... we always decide there is no way around it being a straw purchase. (No matter what the circumstances are, it would be our money. By definition, that's a straw purchase.)
He'll just have to save his money, and find something for himself.
(He'll be needing a new .30-06, anyway. The one he sold off when he was charged will not be leaving the hands of its current owner.)
I don't know where it is in writing, if at all, but dealers have told me that BATFE policy is that the background (NICS) check is to be used ONLY in connection with the purchase of a gun, not for checking up on your cousin Joe, your daughter's boyfriend, or the guy who wants to borrow money from you. I suspect dealers want to make sure the prospective buyer is serious before running the check; it is a PITA and takes time and if there is no intent to purchase a gun it might be seen as not "in connection" with a gun sale.
Jim
Jim
ursavus.elemensis
New member
Having never been subjected to the business end of a protection from abuse order, I am wondering, Do these things have some sort of expiration date? The OP mentions that the restraining order was long ago. Is it still in effect, and if not, how do you KNOW it is not in effect. In other words, did it have an expiration date? Did it get revoked by a court order? Do your homework, find out if it is still in effect, and then get a good lawyer who understands gun laws in your state. Isn't there an NRA database of lawyers who understand gun case law?
Sounds like at least 2 forum members have found out first hand that, NO, you can't even pay someone to run a background check unless you are seriously trying to actually buy a firearm. But I still think that TRYING to buy a firearm as a prohibited person is illegal in and of itself, so he is kind of stuck. the only way to find out if he is going to be deemed a prohibited person is if he tries to buy a firearm, but according to me, if he does and fails the background check, he is guilty of being a prohibited person and trying illegally to obtain a firearm.
Get yourself qualified legal counsel as sson as you can.
Sounds like at least 2 forum members have found out first hand that, NO, you can't even pay someone to run a background check unless you are seriously trying to actually buy a firearm. But I still think that TRYING to buy a firearm as a prohibited person is illegal in and of itself, so he is kind of stuck. the only way to find out if he is going to be deemed a prohibited person is if he tries to buy a firearm, but according to me, if he does and fails the background check, he is guilty of being a prohibited person and trying illegally to obtain a firearm.
Get yourself qualified legal counsel as sson as you can.
I don't know if the guy's old restraining order is gone or what...I was just at the shop buying a new choke for my shotgun and happened to overhear the conversation. They were talking loud enough that it was hard not to hear the conversation where I was standing.
The only reason I started the thread is out of curiosity to see what the laws/procedures are in these cases, since I have no clue about it. As far as I am concerned, the only time I will really worry is when the Feds pass a law that if you ever had a traffic citation, you can't own a firearm. That's where my 10 year old ticket for "Crossing a Solid Line" will come to haunt me.
For some reason as the thread went on, everyone assumed I was talking about myself, but am not. I am happily legally allowed to own firearms...check out my thread in the shotgun forum from a day or two ago where I show my new baby, a Remington 870. That's the shotgun I was buying the choke for.
The only reason I started the thread is out of curiosity to see what the laws/procedures are in these cases, since I have no clue about it. As far as I am concerned, the only time I will really worry is when the Feds pass a law that if you ever had a traffic citation, you can't own a firearm. That's where my 10 year old ticket for "Crossing a Solid Line" will come to haunt me.
For some reason as the thread went on, everyone assumed I was talking about myself, but am not. I am happily legally allowed to own firearms...check out my thread in the shotgun forum from a day or two ago where I show my new baby, a Remington 870. That's the shotgun I was buying the choke for.
ursavus.elemensis
New member
Dang it if rural Maryland isn't famous for the "you crossed the yellow line" tickets. How the heck can you fight that in court? Where's the proof of your innocence going to come from? Very frustrating. My one and only time I got ensnared in that led to my policy that they may make me pay the ticket, but they're going to spend an equal or greater amount of money paying the cop overtime to go to court and paying the district judge and the office staff and the electric bill for lights and air conditioning, and paying for the paper for the ticket and paying for the postage to send me the letters, etc.
Dragline45
New member
Every time I go to buy a firearm as I fill out the paperwork the dealer always says "alright I have to go call the FBI and run a background check". So from what I understand it is as simple as a phone call.
There are some misconceptions being repeated here, along with some truth. It does appear that the law tells FFL dealers they can only run the check (phone call) if you are buying a gun. However, failing the instant check does not automatically mean you are a prohibited person.
As was noted, there are many things that can give you a "delayed", or even a "denied" response, without you being a prohibited person. That's why there is an appeals process. I know one individual who got delayed, because his file was flagged. He was not a prohibited person. Yet his file was flagged. The official on the other end of the phone doesn't know why a file is flagged, only if it is, or not. The details get resolved in the appeals process. As it turned out, my friend with the flagged file had been flagged because he had a govt. security clearance! He did get his gun, and got the "flag" issue resolved as well.
I'm no lawyer, and don't claim to be, but I am under the impression that if the sale is denied, the dealer MUST return ALL the money you give him. Ethically, he has to give you either your money, or the gun. Anything else is fraud. I have bought a number of guns from dealers over the years, and never had a single one of them even ring up the sale before making the phone call.
Incorrect. Getting a permit will tell you that you are not a prohibited person, but it does not get you out of the dealer making the instant check phone call. That is the dealer's responsibility, and must be done for every purchase, every time, no matter what kind of permit you have. What a permit may get you out of (depending on individual state law) is the waiting period. The Brady law required a waiting period for handguns (so a background check could be done). This was a Federal law, and independent of state law. If your state required a waiting period, it could be concurrent with the Brady law waiting period. The deal struck by the NRA and the Feds was that when the instant check became possible (which it wasn't when the law was passed), in exchange for dropping the waiting period, the instant check (phone call) would be done for all firearms, not just handguns.
Which is what we have today. Individual states, which had waiting periods for handguns, before the Brady Law, kept them. I live in a state with a waiting period for handguns. 3 business days, the last time I checked. Totally independent of Federal law. However, my state also says that if you have a CPL, the waiting period is waived. Again, totally independent of Fed Law. Different states have different laws.
So, If I buy a handgun from a dealer, I fill out the fed forms, dealer makes the fed phone call, and with my state CPL permit, I pay the dealer, and walk out with the gun. Without the state CPL, the exact same thing happens, except I don't get to walk out with the gun, I come back in 3 days and pick it up.
NO state permit waives the Fed background check phone call.
As was noted, there are many things that can give you a "delayed", or even a "denied" response, without you being a prohibited person. That's why there is an appeals process. I know one individual who got delayed, because his file was flagged. He was not a prohibited person. Yet his file was flagged. The official on the other end of the phone doesn't know why a file is flagged, only if it is, or not. The details get resolved in the appeals process. As it turned out, my friend with the flagged file had been flagged because he had a govt. security clearance! He did get his gun, and got the "flag" issue resolved as well.
I'm no lawyer, and don't claim to be, but I am under the impression that if the sale is denied, the dealer MUST return ALL the money you give him. Ethically, he has to give you either your money, or the gun. Anything else is fraud. I have bought a number of guns from dealers over the years, and never had a single one of them even ring up the sale before making the phone call.
Incorrect. Getting a permit will tell you that you are not a prohibited person, but it does not get you out of the dealer making the instant check phone call. That is the dealer's responsibility, and must be done for every purchase, every time, no matter what kind of permit you have. What a permit may get you out of (depending on individual state law) is the waiting period. The Brady law required a waiting period for handguns (so a background check could be done). This was a Federal law, and independent of state law. If your state required a waiting period, it could be concurrent with the Brady law waiting period. The deal struck by the NRA and the Feds was that when the instant check became possible (which it wasn't when the law was passed), in exchange for dropping the waiting period, the instant check (phone call) would be done for all firearms, not just handguns.
Which is what we have today. Individual states, which had waiting periods for handguns, before the Brady Law, kept them. I live in a state with a waiting period for handguns. 3 business days, the last time I checked. Totally independent of Federal law. However, my state also says that if you have a CPL, the waiting period is waived. Again, totally independent of Fed Law. Different states have different laws.
So, If I buy a handgun from a dealer, I fill out the fed forms, dealer makes the fed phone call, and with my state CPL permit, I pay the dealer, and walk out with the gun. Without the state CPL, the exact same thing happens, except I don't get to walk out with the gun, I come back in 3 days and pick it up.
NO state permit waives the Fed background check phone call.
No call is made in Iowa, the permit is all you need. I should say a permit to purchase pistols and revolvers or a permit to carry weapons. It is all you need here.
I had a restraining order on me was 4 years ago. Never lost my permit. I just got the new permit to carry. Tell tha guy dont worry, go for it.
Everyone can use a 410 single shot
or 12ga or 20ga....Microgunner
New member
In Florida you cannot run a background check unless a form 4473 is completed and you can't complete a form 4473 unless a firearms transfer is taking place.
There is a provision in the law that allows a pawnshop to precheck a person prior to pawning their firearm, but we are not supposed to run background checks without a complete 4473. When the BATFE audits they sometimes count the number of completed 4473s in our files and compare this number to the number of background checks called in. These numbers should match.
I believe this is to ensure the authorities ability to prosecute, if deemed appropriate, any person who has lied on the form 4473, a felony in Florida.
There is a provision in the law that allows a pawnshop to precheck a person prior to pawning their firearm, but we are not supposed to run background checks without a complete 4473. When the BATFE audits they sometimes count the number of completed 4473s in our files and compare this number to the number of background checks called in. These numbers should match.
I believe this is to ensure the authorities ability to prosecute, if deemed appropriate, any person who has lied on the form 4473, a felony in Florida.
Let it Bleed
New member
I'm not an Iowan, but I think I can shed a little light on the issue as follows:
It is federal law that allows some State issued carry licenses to substitute for the NICS. BATF sends a letter to licensed dealers in States they determine meet the exemption criteria.
The requirements for a state to be exempted from the N.I.C.S are:
1) Is the license or permit valid for five (5) years or less;
2) Had a N.I.C.S. check performed and passed during the license application process; and
3) Is the license or pemit denied to anyone prohibited from possessing firearms under federal, state, or local law.
The regulation exempting states from the instant check is 27 C.F.R. (Code of Federal Regulations).
Here is the relevant text from 27 CFR 478.102 that allows State issued concealed carry permits to be exempt from the National Instant Check System (NICS):
(d) Exceptions to NICS check. The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall not apply if (1) The transferee has presented to the licensee a valid permit or license that (i) Allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm; (ii) Was issued not more than 5 years earlier by the State in which the transfer is to take place; and (iii) The law of the State provides that such a permit or license is to be issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by the transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law: Provided, That on and after November 30, 1998, the information available to such official includes the NICS; (2) The firearm is subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act and has been approved for transfer under 27 CFR part 479; or (3) On application of the licensee, in accordance with the provisions of 478.150, the Director has certified that compliance with paragraph (a)(1) of this section is impracticable.
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FrankenMauser
New member
If you are following the prescribed method for legally obtaining firearms (and answering truthfully), according to State and Federal law; how does that become 'attempting to illegally obtain a firearm'?
It sounds more like 'attempting to legally obtain a firearm' to me; even if the person (as it turns out) cannot legally purchase the firearm.
Microgunner
New member
FrankenMauser is correct. If a prohibited person answers the questions truthfully on the form 4473 the dealer will deny the sale then and there without callling in a background check. If the prohibited person lies on the 4473 and the dealer calls in the background check and the person is denied he/she has 21 days to appeal if they think they were denied wrongfully. In the meantime the FFL dealer is required to report the denied firearm purchase attempt to the local authority for investigation and/or prosecution if deemed warrented.
Nebr same way. Is a state law thing, your state can do the same so get emails and phone calls started now. No waiting period, if you are OK to carry a weapon isnt it safe to say you are OK to buy one too?
the background check has been done for the permit, why duplicate things and make it cost more? is common sense but when have politicos shown that? aguila blanca:
"If you can't pass a background check you won't be issued a carry license/permit. The background check for those is essentially the same as the NICS to buy a firearm."
ccw is much more stringent than buying a firearm and why in az and many states, having the ccw doesn't require the nics check.
"If you can't pass a background check you won't be issued a carry license/permit. The background check for those is essentially the same as the NICS to buy a firearm."
ccw is much more stringent than buying a firearm and why in az and many states, having the ccw doesn't require the nics check.