NEED Quick help! Why did we go into Iraq?

Hey, I love a good conspiracy theory. I just haven't seen any real evidence of that one. For every genuine conspiracy, there are a thousand crackpot allegations, and I see the Roosevelt/instigator of Pearl Harbor as being on the "crackpot" side. Any evidence to the contrary...please point me in its direction and I'd be happy to take a look.
Meanwhile, I have an incoming memo from the planet Veros that I need to attend to. :D
 
Well Chas. I'll try to look up something for your 'horse with the blind, following the carrot' attitude. Amazing how so many follow the 'official' version of things and then just close their mind like a trap door.Very trusting to say the least. I for one am glad I can think for myself (or try)and be a little inquisitive.
 
Well Chas. I'll try to look up something for your 'horse with the blind, following the carrot' attitude. Amazing how so many follow the 'official' version of things and then just close their mind like a trap door.Very trusting to say the least. I for one am glad I can think for myself (or try)and be a little inquisitive.
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Do I have to buy into all conspiracy theories to avoid being tagged with a 'horse with the blind, following the carrot' attitude' or just the Roosevelt one? I meant what I said in the previous post: I really do love a good conspiracy theory, and find some of them to have varying amounts of credibility. Just not that one. In all seriousness, send me a link or the name of a book or something.
(I think we are getting a bit off subject with this thread, but "conspiracy theory" seems to have become a part of any and all issues, both past and present. Whether we are talking about the reasons for going to war or Princess Diana's death...before the first clod falls, a dozen conspiracy theories are going to pop up. Sifting through them can be mindboggling. I agree that it is good to be inquisitive, but coupled with an ample amount of skepticism.)
 
Then you should be able to provide me with SOLID EVIDENCE, right? There is ALL SORTS of speculation, ESPECIALLY on the War er, History Channel. I have asked this question to so many people so many times and have YET to get anything but, "EVERBODY KNOWS IT'S TRUE". Great. Prove it to me.

Kind of like in "Stranger in a Stange Land" Jubal Hershaw asks Ann as a Fair Witness "What color is that house on the hill painted?" Her response? "The two walls I CAN SEE are painted white." Because she couldn't PHYSICALLY SEE the other two sides of the house, she DID NOT ASSUME that it WAS painted the same color UNLESS she went up and then looked at the other two sides. Even then she would only stipulate that it WAS whatever color it was at the moment she looked at it.
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Some declassified documents and communications:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/fdr_provoked_the_japanese_attack.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/SH.html

What I don't understand is if you're so curious, why don't you look for these things yourself? It's like the patriotic couch potatoes or the Class III weapons owners who consider fighting for the right to bear arms the same thing as voting RINO and sending $10 to the NRA every five years.
 
PS,
THX. I've read all of this before. In NEITHER INSTANCE can it be PROVEN that FDR actually knew we were going to be attacked AND WHEN.

Whether or not FDR knew about the Japanese plans to attack Pearl Harbor actually misses the larger and more important issue
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That's from the first link. The second link has even LESS worthwhile info. I've even read other 'message intercepts' that never actually made it out of the War Dept PRIOR to Peal Harbor being attacked. Again, I'm not saying that FDR did not know. I would like indisputable proof that he either did or did not. I would NEVER argue that FDR wanted us in WWII, for a myraid of reasons. But to state empirically that FDR KNEW without tangible proof does NO ONE any good.

Then you should be able to provide me with SOLID EVIDENCE, right?
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However, there is NO PROOF in ANY material I've been able to uncover, and you have not given me anything I haven't seen, some of it more than twenty years ago when I did a paper on this EXACT SUBJECT. "DID FDR KNOW WE WERE GOING TO BE ATTACKED BY THE JAPANESE". While I got an A for the paper, my overall conclusion was that while it was probable that he did know, there is NO solid proof, like his deathbed confession OR one of his staff or cabinet member 'fessing up'. Having said that, I would LOVE to read the ONE item that continues to remain 'classified' even after SIXTY YEARS.

Thx for trying though. Please note in my personal tag that I AM an NRA member and certified firearms instructor and have been since 1998 (97?).
 
Some more background:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

I'm really wondering what kind of "proof" you're looking for. Perhaps a picture of FDR reading Admiral Yamamoto's communications from November? I'm sorry, I don't have that.

Japanese submarines were being sunk right outside of Pearl Harbor and nobody at the base put out an alert that an attack was underway. FDR had the codebreaking machines removed from Pearl Harbor months before the attack.

And it's not a secret that Roosevelt's backers had been funding Hitler's war machine for many years.

Perhaps FDR didn't even know Japan existed before 1941? I have no proof that he did.

Someone can believe that FDR had no prior knowledge, but 99% of the historical community will disagree with them.
 
PS,
Thx, I will have to go out and buy "Day of Deceit".

To those who believe that government conspiracies can’t possibly happen, Day Of Deceit could prove to them otherwise.
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Again, I personally believe it. But what type of evidence am I LOOKING FOR? Something that would stand up in a court of law. Because if you can't prove it in a court of law, then you don't have EMPIRICAL PROOF. Just supposition and innuendoe.

There has to be SOMEONE OUT THERE who is still alive that KNOWS what FDR did and did not know about Nippon attacking Pearl. But you should NOTICE that everything you posted for me says things like, "could" or "may" or "perhaps".

I am an old school trained journalist that was taught that if you CAN'T PROVE IT WITH EYEWITNESS accounts or sworn statements from said eyewitnesses, then you best leave it out of your story, or your paper would be sued into the ground. And that was 1972. I don't beleive in our current legal system, things have gotten any better in the past thirty plus years. SO, short of that, I will ASSUME what you say is true (as I have said throughout this thread) but you have yet to 'PROVE YOUR CASE', as it were.

No offense, but there are NO STARTLING REVELATIONS (or any other info I've have not seen in the past - the exception is the book listed, which I will go buy and read) in anything you have posted. Sorry.

IF the book mentioned above DOES have EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, I will be happy to 'eat crow' here on TFL, giving kudo's to YOU PERSONALLY. Thx for playing though.
 
Because if you can't prove it in a court of law, then you don't have EMPIRICAL PROOF. Just supposition and innuendoe.

I am an old school trained journalist that was taught that if you CAN'T PROVE IT WITH EYEWITNESS accounts or sworn statements from said eyewitnesses, then you best leave it out of your story, or your paper would be sued into the ground.
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Circumstantial evidence is what it is. But very good circumstantial evidence. It's hard to get eyewitnesses when they were sworn to secrecy to begin with and are long dead now...Now that the documents on what the government knew are declassified. To borrow a line from LAK: NWO conspeewacy you say? :D

Funny how that always works isn't it. I understand the JFK files will be released in what 2020? Something like that.
 
I understand the JFK files will be released in what 2020? Something like that.
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Long enough that anyone who might have been involved in his murder will be dead as will all the eye witnesses for sure.

It's a matter of national security you know. ;)
 
PsychoSword. You must have majored in Conspiracy Theory 101 in school.
Sheesh....

Be careful, you know the Green Clovers and Blue Diamonds in Lucky Charms
cereal are not what they seem! They are organic tracking devices, that
disolve without trace into your blood stream, put there by a special co-op
unit, comprised of radical IRA members and rouge KGB agents, to keep track
of americans! FEAR THE LEPRECHAUN! :rolleyes:
 
Someone can believe that FDR had no prior knowledge, but 99% of the historical community will disagree with them.
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Says who? The WhatReallyHappened.com crowd?
For those that are not familiar with the site, their own mantra (listed at the top of their home page) reads "This site is non-partisan, anti-war, and anti-lie. The purpose of this site is to expose deceptions by governments and media used to trick the public into wars and out of their money."
Notice, they do not say anti-Iraq war. Based on their own statement, it seems they are against all war, seeing each one, including WWII, as having no validity, as total conspiracies of corrupt governments.
I will look into the FDR/Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory but I will have to find some alternative source that does not have such an obvious presupposing agenda.
This is your idea of "the historical community?" Come on, if there is some truth to this, there has got to be some source with a little more solidity.
 
Well, I work in the historical community, so I should know what it is...

The evidence is there, if you want to discount it, that's your right.
 
PS,

It's hard to get eyewitnesses when they were sworn to secrecy to begin with and are long dead now
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First part is TRUE. Second part is FALSE. There are still plenty of WAR DEPARTMENT employes still alive. Perhaps ONE OF THEM will 'drop a dime' on this particular speculation. OR, MAYBE I'll live long enough for the US gov to declassify the last remaining document that proves what you said. Until then, while I personally agree as I have said throughout this thread, it's speculation, NOT FACT.

Charley,

I will look into the FDR/Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory but I will have to find some alternative source that does not have such an obvious presupposing agenda.
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I wish you luck. I've been trying for more than twenty years to find EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that CANNOT be refuted by anyone. Haven't found it yet, but I keep looking to this day. Hey, I'm only 51. MAYBE I WILL live long enough to 'find the truth', but I doubt it.

jw
 
By the way Charley, THERE IS NO SUCH THING as an "unbiased source". It's like trying to find Bigfoot.

<gburner witty comment>Oh really? I thought you believed in bigfoot P'sword</gburner witty comment>
 
Support our troops...

First, I do support our troops. They are doing tough dangerous work... it's just that the work they are doing is wrong. It's not their fault. They are following the orders of their commander-in -chief.

The unfortunate truth is that we live in a country with a government that has been cutting the funding to support our troops just as it has also been cutting the funding to the VA to treat our injured vets. Vets who have lost their livelyhoods along with their limbs and God only knows what else in the course of fulfilling their duty to their country.

The reality is that the current administration starts blurting the whole "support our troops" mantra everytime one of their blunders or lies has been exposed, this in hope that WE the public will look the other way. So far it has work very well.

It tears my heart out to see these youg kids coming home so horribly injured only to know how little the goverment pays beyond lip service to their future rehabilitation. :barf:

There is an old saying that goes "It's not what you say.. but what you do that is the true judge of intent". If this be the case then the American people had best be watching what this administration has been doing much more closely and have the courage to tell the emperor that he has on no clothing at all. :mad:

If we can't do that then we should send all of us old farts over there. We have already lived our lives... Give the kids a chance.
 
?

Ben.........

You say the work they are doing is wrong.......... You been there? Didn't think so...... Yea, rebuilding water systems, power grids, schools, hospitals, and helping a government get off on the right foot, training a police force and helping with security.......yea your right all this is wrong? How is it wrong?........ I agree with most of what you said after your first few sentences....... I disagree that you can support the troops and then say what they do is wrong......... The two don't fit together sir........

The part you stated about what they get once they get wounded and come back.......that I will agree with you on. It upsets me to hear the VA is always getting less and less.......and has to try to do more and more with it...

To be real honest- politics stink don't they........ Rob Peter and pay Paul.....seems like Pete is the US service member............. Bless them all and may God bring them home to us soon......... God Bless America
 
I think TheBluesMan nailed this one right on the head on the first page.


For conspiracy theorists: The US is a democracy, and decisions rarely if ever get made for one reason alone. Everyone needs a reason to cooperate. See Bluesman's list of factors that I think encompass the lion's share of people who supported the Iraq war.
 
I think TheBluesMan nailed this one right on the head on the first page.
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That's my take on it as well.


But just for the entertainment of our tin-foil hat friends I'll play the part of a Dubya cheerleader.


[school spirit]Rick 'em, rack 'em, rick 'em, roil! Kick their ass and take their oil!!! Yaaaaay team![/school spirit] :p


I have got to say God bless the person that invented that wonderful ignore button. :D
 
Some people should realize that some threads should remain dead...

To anyone saying that Bush got us into this, remember that nearly every other main country had intelligence saying that they believed that Iraq had/was going after WMD's. Clinton and Kerry both are on the record as saying that something needed to be done with Iraq. Bush was simply the first one to make good on a threat.

Although, Saddam plotting to kill Bush I probably didn't help him any.
 
1. Unfinished Bush family business- Bush Jr wanting to outdo his old man?.
2. US intelligence / Public Service trying hard to oblige the president and find a justification for war instead of being truly objective in assessing evidence.
3. OIL- OIL and more oil- is it a coincidence that Iraq and Afghanistan are both between the sea and Siberian oil? oil pipelines require stable governments in their path.
 
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