Need help with identification of rifle
- Thread starter Samurai1981
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
If it was made by Krupp, that means one thing...
The .308 barrel is either a gunsmith rebore OR a gunsmith replacement.
The .308 Winchester came out in the early to mid 1950s.
I'm pretty sure that Krupp was not making smallarms after WW II.
Oh, skip that. That's a modified Arisaka. Has absolutely NOTHING to do wtih Krupp.
The .308 barrel is either a gunsmith rebore OR a gunsmith replacement.
The .308 Winchester came out in the early to mid 1950s.
I'm pretty sure that Krupp was not making smallarms after WW II.
Oh, skip that. That's a modified Arisaka. Has absolutely NOTHING to do wtih Krupp.
Samurai1981
Inactive
OK there, it was only a joke...
I would agree with that if someone were going to modify a pristine (or good condition) milsurp, TODAY. 40-60 years ago, it was a totally different story. The guns were cheap, common as dirt, and in the case of the Jap ones, really difficult to find ammo for.
I have sporterized Arisakas, Mausers, Springfields, even a sporterized Norwegian Krag (6.5x55mm). That one is a real shame, today. But 70 or 80+ some years ago when it was done, they made a really nice rifle.
The three intelocking rings is a Krupp symbol. Also a Japanese arsenal mark (Nagoya, I think), and was also used by a beer company back in the 60s, although I no longer recall which one.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I wish I could trace it back to the person who did all the work to it! So I could beat them over the head and ask why in the world they would screw up history!"
Funny thing about that sentiment...
Today's history is yesterday's scrap metal.
If we were to look at everything as something that's going to be historic some day, we'd all be on the show Hoarders.
Funny thing about that sentiment...
Today's history is yesterday's scrap metal.
If we were to look at everything as something that's going to be historic some day, we'd all be on the show Hoarders.
tahunua001
New member
i kindof get the screwing up history bit but I also look at it from the viewpoint that a rifle I can't shoot isn't much good.
I would love nothing more than an arisaka 38 but 7.7 jap is very hard to come by, a conversion to 30-06 or 308 would easily remedy that little problem.
also look at how much these rifles used to cost before they became collectable. I have seen pages from the sears catalog that lists all parts matching enfield no 4s for $10 with pre sporterized model 4s going for $15. at the same time winchesters and remingtons were going for closer to $100 so mounting a scope and changing the calibers on what was at the time called "JAP POS" is a cheap way to turn them into a practical hunting rifle.
I did the same to what is currently being called "Russian POS" and kindof failed at it but I feel a lot better knowing that I ruined a $125 mosin nagant than I would if I ruined a $900 springfield.
also that symbol is not the krupps symbol. it is the arsenol mark and is even shown in one of the OP's pics placed right where it should be for a Japanese Arisaka.
the barrel not matching is of no real concern. non of these rifles were originally chambered for 308 so you can expect that quite a bit of medling was done with the action and barrel in order to 7.7x58 shoot 7.62x51.
I would love nothing more than an arisaka 38 but 7.7 jap is very hard to come by, a conversion to 30-06 or 308 would easily remedy that little problem.
also look at how much these rifles used to cost before they became collectable. I have seen pages from the sears catalog that lists all parts matching enfield no 4s for $10 with pre sporterized model 4s going for $15. at the same time winchesters and remingtons were going for closer to $100 so mounting a scope and changing the calibers on what was at the time called "JAP POS" is a cheap way to turn them into a practical hunting rifle.
I did the same to what is currently being called "Russian POS" and kindof failed at it but I feel a lot better knowing that I ruined a $125 mosin nagant than I would if I ruined a $900 springfield.
also that symbol is not the krupps symbol. it is the arsenol mark and is even shown in one of the OP's pics placed right where it should be for a Japanese Arisaka.
the barrel not matching is of no real concern. non of these rifles were originally chambered for 308 so you can expect that quite a bit of medling was done with the action and barrel in order to 7.7x58 shoot 7.62x51.
TheSILENTtype
New member
After a number of years researching off and on (most of it pre-internet!), a couple years ago I was finally able to identify the model of field piece that has adorned the center of my hometown for almost a century. The gun on the common is a 10.5cm Kanone 1917, otherwise abbreviated K17. The weapon is not a howitzer but a field gun, which fired a flatter trajectory, and was a modification of the successful 10.5cm K14. A demand for greater range necessitated replacing the 35 caliber barrel of the K14 with a very long 45 caliber tube in the K17. The longer and heavier barrel made movement of the gun in one piece a difficult proposition. March ordering the K17 was accomplished by removing the tube and transporting it separately on a second limber, known as a “barrel cart”.
The K17 was a rugged and robust field gun, with a horizontal sliding block breech very similar to the venerable American M101A1 105mm howitzer (which served with the Marine Corps from before World War II into the 1990s). The box trail, common to the period, limited traverse, but the weapon was capable of elevation to 800 mils.
The K17 proved extremely effective in combat, having a high rate of fire, and a range of nearly 17,000 meters. It was employed extensively in the counter-battery role (artilleriebekämfungsartillerie, or AKA) as well as against infantry. The gun was capable of firing all types of 10.5cm ammunition, including gas and chemical munitions. Fewer than 300 were produced, and several sources list only a handful of surviving examples. (Interestingly, none list this specific one.)
This particular piece is No. 278, as the photos show, and was manufactured by the famous Krupp firm in Essen in 1918.
The three interlocking rings, the Krupp symbol, are stamped in the upper corners on the rear of the breechblock (top image).
The three interlocking rings, the Krupp symbol, are stamped in the upper corners on the rear of the breechblock (top image).
I am open to picture and research supported counter response??
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tahunua001
New member
did you look at the pictures or are you basing all of this off a microsoft paint etching?
the mark in the OP does resemble the krupps symbol but the actual picture is the arsenol marking which are also 3 interlocking circles but with the interlocked lines removed.
why would a japanese arisaka rifle have a krupps proof in the first place?
the mark in the OP does resemble the krupps symbol but the actual picture is the arsenol marking which are also 3 interlocking circles but with the interlocked lines removed.
why would a japanese arisaka rifle have a krupps proof in the first place?
TheSILENTtype
New member
We know this is a mix breed rifle, from what I understand the stamp was not on the rifle but a component.
No doubt this is an arisaka, none.
I am only standing behind my logo research. EDIT : For the whatever component this symbol is on. However, I will ask ;
What picture are you referring to? I have yet to see a picture of the actual markings ; only the image initially posted with ' it looks like this '.
Also, I am currently on a 2.25 inch screen, so I likely overlooked attachments if they were posted after the original messsage.
No doubt this is an arisaka, none.
I am only standing behind my logo research. EDIT : For the whatever component this symbol is on. However, I will ask ;
What picture are you referring to? I have yet to see a picture of the actual markings ; only the image initially posted with ' it looks like this '.
Also, I am currently on a 2.25 inch screen, so I likely overlooked attachments if they were posted after the original messsage.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Here's the Krupp symbol.
No one is disputing that they used a series of interlocking rings.
What also is NOT in dispute is that the rifle pictured is a Japanese Arisaka.
Krupp NEVER made Arisaka rifles.
NEVER.
This is the symbol of the Tokyo/Kokura Arsenal, which was also a series of interlocking rings:
If you look closely at the picture of the action provided by Samurai, you will see that this picture matches what is stamped on the side of his gun.
I'm not sure what the issue is here -- that no one other than Krupp could have used interlocking rings?
Just for grins and giggles, whose symbol is this?
That's the Ballentine Beer symbol. Brewed in America. And not by Krupp, which never had a brewing division, either.
No one is disputing that they used a series of interlocking rings.
What also is NOT in dispute is that the rifle pictured is a Japanese Arisaka.
Krupp NEVER made Arisaka rifles.
NEVER.
This is the symbol of the Tokyo/Kokura Arsenal, which was also a series of interlocking rings:
If you look closely at the picture of the action provided by Samurai, you will see that this picture matches what is stamped on the side of his gun.
I'm not sure what the issue is here -- that no one other than Krupp could have used interlocking rings?
Just for grins and giggles, whose symbol is this?
That's the Ballentine Beer symbol. Brewed in America. And not by Krupp, which never had a brewing division, either.
tahunua001
New member
the OP posted pictures in posts 13 and 14.
the first shows the japanese characters for 38 over the top of the receiver.
the second shows a the left side of the receiver with the serial number and 3 interlocked circles(like the ones mike posted from tokyo).
3 and 4 are wider views of the action showing the aftermarket bolt(mark free from what I can see) and stock inletting.
the first shows the japanese characters for 38 over the top of the receiver.
the second shows a the left side of the receiver with the serial number and 3 interlocked circles(like the ones mike posted from tokyo).
3 and 4 are wider views of the action showing the aftermarket bolt(mark free from what I can see) and stock inletting.
TheSILENTtype
New member
I had never seen the pictures that were posted as noted from above, apologize for that.
I was on the other hand, more or less suggesting the non OE component with the marking was likely bearing the Krupp symbol.. again, had not seen the original pics.
Will check them out when I am back at work on the PC
I was on the other hand, more or less suggesting the non OE component with the marking was likely bearing the Krupp symbol.. again, had not seen the original pics.
Will check them out when I am back at work on the PC