Need help with college paper on pacifism.

Conservative

New member
I am a student finishing up my degree at Goshen College, a small LIBERAL Mennonite Church college. In this paper I would like to show that the Bible does not teach non-resistance/pacifism.

The Prof. who will be reading this believes that the Christian may NEVER use physical force in defense of self or others, and that violent actions are always evil.

Following are examples of the statements I have heard while a student here.

"Only immature Christians would ever use a weapon in self defense."

"If someone was raping me, DON'T YOU DARE kill them"

"Christians can't be in the military"

I disagree with them 100%. I carry a snub .357 or Hi-cap 9mm most of the time and I am a devout Christian.

I need to hear some of your thoughts on how best to show from the Bible that the Cristian may, and in some instances is obligated, to use lethal force.

I also I would titles of helpful books and web pages.

As Walt Rauch once wrote "Praise God and pass the ammo!"
 
Rambling response:

Go ask a religious Jew whether their version of the Ten Commandments proscribe killing. You'll find theirs distinguish between lawful killing in self defense and murder.

I'm not enough of a bible thumper to quote chapter and verse but there's a passage somewhere in the good book about if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak to get one.

Also check out Proverbs 24:6, "For by wise counsel thou shall wage thy war and in multiple of counsel there is safety." (That's about the only one I've committed to memory).

Excuse me, but if Christians aren't allowed to serve in the military, who were the Crusaders then? Furthermore, wasn't it Christian v. Christian during the 30 Years War? Neither Gustavus Adolphus and Wallenstein were Islamic or Buddhist. And what of the Papal Army with their Swiss Guard? These are but a few historical examples Christians in military service.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
www.jpfo.org

Rabbi Mermelstein has some stuff there on the Old Testament and personal defense.

Jesus knocked over a few tables once, let's remember. And I remember something about selling garments to buy a sword. Not exactly a pacifist.
 
He that hath no sword,let him sell his garments and buy one. the bible : Luke 22:36

In the time of Our Lord ,Jesus Christ,
the sword was the present day equivalent of
the fully automatic, 3 shot burst select fire and single shot semi automatic Battle Rifle, complimented with 4 -30 shot magazines and a bayonet.Full auto= one continious press
of the trigger for shooting the entire 30 shot magazine;3 shot burst select fire= 1
continious press of the trigger for 3 shot
burst,release trigger & repress for next 3 shot burst etc-- single shot semi auto =
1 pull of trigger for 1 shot,release trigger and pull again for next shot etc.


The idea is that the sword was the standard issue infantry weapon; just as the
full auto,3 shot burst,semi auto rifle is now the standard issue of the infantry soldier.

The Second Ammendment of the Constitution of the United States realized that the right to self defense was a God Given inalienable right of the individual,
predating the constitution and not a right of the malitia. The reasons for the American Revolution were 1. To stop the British soldiers from illegally Konfiscating Ammerican Firearms and 2. Taxation without representation.Both problems are still very much with us today, from enemies Domestic, who betray their oaths of office.
Governments and malitias and gun grabbing socialists in office, HAVE POWERS , only people and individuals have RIGHTS.

A well regulated malitia, being necessary to the security of the state,

the
right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED.

VERB =shall not be infringed. Subject of sentence is the right.
Whose right? The right-of the people.

To any one who has stuidied first year high school English, the meaning of the second ammendment is crystal clear. The second ammendment specifically forbids the government to infringe on the right of the people to bear arms. Period.

As I read it, the first clause, A well regulated malitia,being necessary to the security of the state----- establishes the
powers of the states to have a malitia , susposedly independently of the Federal Government. today this is the National Guard,which was established in 1911, but the National Guard is not independent of the Federal Government but rather, against the meaning of the Constitution, under the direct and immediate control of the Federal Government. So ,you may begin to suspect now
how far the constitution has been subverted by enemies domestic.

The meaning of the founding fathers and the signers fo the constitution was that the people be armed to the same extent as the army infantryman. This means with full auto,select fire, semi auto
battle rifles. Please note the battle rifle is much superior to the so called "Assault Rifle" which is a semi auto only ,1 shot,1 trigger pull civilian " look similar imitation " now limited to having a 10 shot magazine only. The older models , before "some reasonable gun control" used to have 30 shot magazines; now all new guns are limited to 10 shots only. This is the same firepower as a Glock pocket pistol.
The main purpose of the founding fathers & framers for the constitution THAT THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP & BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED was so that civilians
be armed, to the same extent as soldiers, so that, as a last resort the people would be able to resist and deter an oppressive tynary
of a government grown to large and powerfull.
DOES THIS START TO SOUND SIMIALER TO ANYTHING RECENT? Lets see,over taxation, rotten representation and a government attempting to Konfiscate firearms. Naw -- you couldnt mean
1999 ,no way!Not here.Well, the conditions exist, but we are sheeple, we hide and cring
at the mention of names like Adolf Hitler, Bill and Hilory Klinton, BATF and FBI.
devided we fall and our masters well know this.They worry not, after all ,they have armed bodyguards paid for by our tax dollars
to protect them.

How many tax payer funded armed body guards do you have protecting you?

None, and they want to register, license and the Konfiscate our fire arms so that we will be defenseless and at the mercy
of all the armed felons that some how forget to register their illegal firearms.Felons do not have to register their illegal firearms
because of the Fifth Ammendment, they would be incriminating themselves. Only law abiding citizens will be subject to registration and Konfiscation, muck like the Jews in Germany just before the Holicost. Our 22,000 US gun laws are closely copied from the nazi gun laws of 1938 .

[This message has been edited by ernest2 (edited November 18, 1999).]
 
I recommend the book: "When is it Right to Fight" by Robert A. Morey. Based entirely on the Bible, with an emphasis on the military. Very good.
Quite a few Christians use only a few verses at the exclusion of all others in order to make the Bible say whay they want instead of what it really says. Most rely entirely on the sermon on the mount and the verse by Jesus that if someone strikes you on the cheek, to turn to him your other cheek. Most believe that this is proof of non-violence in self-defense situations. Nothng could be farther from the truth. What Jesus was saying, and this can be verified by some historical research on the subject, is that people are not to engage in revenge, because that is the responsibility of the "state". Jesus never said anywhere that you were not to defend yourself from physical attack, just not to seek revenge for an attack if it occurs. There is a fine distinction here, but a definite one. In numerous other places in the Bible, which I'm sure you are already aware of, man is commanded to defend himself and family. In the garden when Judas betrayed Jesus, I believe it was Paul who cut off one of the soldiers ears. You have to ask yourself (1) why did he have a sword to begin with, and (2) if Jesus didn't want him to carry one, why did he tell him to put it away instead of getting rid of it all together? Why did he command his disciples to sell their coats and buy a sword? While Jesus was with them, no harm was going to come to them. After He went to the Father however, they would need to defend themselves from robbers and thieves. God commanded the Israelites to kill entire nations of people many times in the Bible. Some people just need killing. God is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. Aggressive violence devoid of morals and motivated by hate and greed is what Jesus was against, not self-defense. The state does not carry a sword in vain, and neither should you.
 
Many Chirstians belive that life is sacred. They also believe that to give up that life without defending yourself is a sin.
 
Amen, Grayfox. An "absolute pacifist" assumes he will have the courage to face the aggression of his opponent and that his opponent will react positively to the constant return of good for evil. Historically, not very successful. Even early Christians soon tired of being lion food. Also, the concept of meeting agression with non-violent example pre-dates Christianity and probably has its roots in Eastern Philosophy. One paper to refute the teaching of the Mennonite Church is a tall order. Perhaps reconcile some of the verses suggested and others with the Sermon on the Mount and your own beliefs. Good Luck.
 
I'm not Christian, but it seems to me that if you believe in G*d, you believe that [H|h]e gave you your life, so therefore, if you allow a person to take that life, you cede G*d's power to that person. That's blasphemy, if I recall my Lutheran upbringing correctly.

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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
 
A lot of the ideas shared here are also being discussed on another topic in the Legal/Political Forums here on TFL. Look for the one talking about Church offerings and guns. The discussion centers around an Episcopal congregation's attempts to force its members to hand over its guns.

I gave my .02 on the subject, but I'll go into a little more detail here, since we're dealing with an issue in the Christian Church.

Brace yourself--entering preaching mode…

There are several passages in the Bible that point out both pacifism (Turning the other cheek, resisting not one who is evil, etc.) and self defense (Exodus 22:2, armed laborer in Nehemiah, Jesus admonishing His disciples to arm themselves). A person could exclusively look to one and try to explain away the other, but the two POVs are not mutually exclusive in the Kingdom of God. Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 (The famous "To everything there is a time under heaven" passage) addresses this very thing.

So, it isn't a question of whether or not the Bible emphasizes pacifism or self-defense. It's a question of what God is speaking to you over the matter at this point in time. If God has decreed to a particular congregation that they are NOT to take up arms, then they need to make sure they follow that decree. But they also need to make sure it is God they are following, and not taking that stance on account of someone else's convictions or political agendas. The same holds true of an American Christian exercising his or her right to keep and bear arms, and use them if necessary.

Here are some historical examples I like to look to, in chronological order:

Huldreich Zwingli, south central Europe's counterpart to Martin Luther, died in battle defending his region and his religion against an invading Catholic army (portraits and statues of him show him holding a Bible and a sword). His teachings were largely pacifistic, but he believed it necessary to take up arms as part of God's means of preserving the life of God's work in that region. Your German may not be as good as mine, but at www.zwingli.ch a discussion is going on about whether or not Zwingli was a real pacifist.

Nathaniel Green was one of our generals during the Revolution. He was also raised as a member of the Society of Friends, akin to the Quakers, who are reknowned in their staunch opposition to taking up arms. Nonetheless, he felt a calling to lead our troops into battle. Needless to say, he came into conflict with his church brothers, and had some personal struggles over the issue (if you can, try to see the Historically-based Outdoor Drama The Sword of Peace to get an idea of these struggles), but he stuck to his guns (pun intended). Were it not for him, we'd all probably be speaking Queen's English and attending Anglican services.

I need not remind you about George Washington. I would recommend finding a copy of Peter Marshall and David Manuel's The Light and the Glory to learn about how God miraculously preserved the life and mission of this man of war who was also a man of faith.

During what John Q. Adams called "The Last Battle of the American Revolution" (The Civil War), both Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were reknowned for their faith. I believe their character and their perspective on war, both attributable to their faith, helped keep the war from becoming more bloody than it was. But nonetheless, they were men of faith who also were professional soldiers.

Finally, at the turn of the century, there was a fella from my old stomping grounds of Tennessee , Alvin York, who became a believer around the time of the first World War. He was drafted, but was one of the despised "conscientious objectors" on grounds of his faith and the Biblical commandment of Thou Shalt Not Kill. There was a personal struggle in him as well, between his faith and his duty to serve his country. The old but excellent movie Sergeant York depicts it fairly well. A fellow believing officer showed him some other passages out of the Bible which helped him resolve this inner conflict. In the end, York was given high honors for single-handedly subduing a large contingent of German soldiers on the battlefield.

Stereotypically, Christians take the pacifist stance for the reason that life--God's creation--is sacred. But throughout history, some very faithful Christian men have taken up arms for that very same reason. It is sacred enough to protect. Furthermore, it seems that the aforementioned men didn't just fight to preserve the biological processes we call life. Many also fought for those aspects of life which aren't seen. Like intellectual liberty, or, more importantly, the liberty to pursue God in whatever direction He has called us.

(Gathering notes, closing Bible, and stepping down from the pulpit). Preaching mode off.

jth


[This message has been edited by Ulfilas (edited November 19, 1999).]
 
Um, pardon me for saying so, but this is one of the most moronic statements I have ever heard about Christians:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Christians can't be in the military[/quote]

Following that twisted statement would make the Bible a work of fiction, as God, many times, commanded men to take up arms, form armies (military) and wipe out men, women, children, and livestock.

Are you sure they are Christian there? :)

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited November 19, 1999).]
 
Moronic is a tough description John. I do not agree with the Mennonite or Quaker teaching, yet I can accept their place in history. Even in the Revolutionary War, Mennonites, though relieved from combat (concientious objectors were tolerated even though they were a minority), were important participants in field hospitals and other important activities. They were a part of the risk takers involved in the founding of our nation. I choose not to judge them. That and my own efforts shall be determined ultimately by upper management.
 
GF,

I was commenting on the statement, not the religion! :)

"Christians can't be in the military," is inclusive of all Christian faiths.

My comment would never have been posted if it had said, "Mennonites can't be in the military."

(Don't take this too seriously. And if you do, please e-mail me! :))

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
Hey John, we are having a conversation in my mind, not an argument :) I read and value your opinions. Your extremeley dry sense of humour combined with great insight is also greatly appreciated. Mennonites say "Christians cannot join the military". My point is you cannot separate that statement from the basic Mennonites' doctrine. I think that we both understand it ,yet disagree with it. To label it moronic is beneath our level of understanding and appreciation.
 
Conservative, others have answered your question directly, but there is another important aspect to the matter.

For example, the UN employs people actively working to reduce and eliminate civilian possession of 'small arms' (i.e. firearms). This is in the same department for general disarmament and arms control regarding nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Just as some people don't understand a strong national defense can deter aggression, they also don't understand that an armed citizenry has certain beneficial impacts on crime and tyrannical governments.

I am coming to believe that most Americans don't realize they are being deceived by the false promises of pacifism. Yet, I don't believe that most Americans are pacifists. Unfortunately, true pacifists seem incapable of understanding that a belief in self defense is not the same as a thirst for blood.

Perhaps when more people realize that they are being sold pacifism in the guise of 'reasonable' gun control, then maybe they will see the truth behind the lies of the anti-self defense movement.

Good luck with your paper. Don't get discouraged - you are probably dealing with many 'true believers' who will not be swayed by logic and fact.
 
Jeff - Great thoughts! To John/az2 - Please accept my apology for being unfair towards you. In retrospect, I was being overprotective of someone close to home. That is no excuse however, and I have since dismounted my high horse and put her out to pasture :).
 
Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. PSALMS 144/1

The lord anointed you king over Israel. And he sent you on a mission, saying, "Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.
1SAM 15/17

What is good in life? "To crush your enemies and see them driven before you" CONNAN
 
The commandment to turn the other cheek does not necessarily support extreme pacifism. "If someone strikes you on your cheek" is not a serious assault- that is, not attempting to kill or wound, but to insult and humiliate. It didn't say "if someone stabs you" or "if some strangles you." It is a commandment to not seek revenge for insults or minor injuries- not a command to lay down and die to any murderer that comes along.

Here's some Bible verses you should quote liberally.

Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:16


Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:15

For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Romans 13:3-4


He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

Luke 22:36


"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Matthew 10:34


John the Baptist- notice he did not tell them to quit being soldiers:
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely--be content with your pay."

Luke 3:14


If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed

Exodus 22:2-3


So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

John 2:15
 
The Bible has many instances of the use of arms... David and Goliath for one.
Christ himself made a whip and through the USE OF FORCE drove the money changers out of the temple. The Book of Mormon also shows many examples of righteous use of arms... too many to even get into.
The scriptures teach us plainly that IT IS YOUR DUTY to DEFEND yourself, your family, and your property. As well as any inocent person you come across in need. The story of the Good Samaritan would have had a little different ending if a Thunder Ranch graduate happened buy during that attack.
Personally, I hold it as my sacred duty to protect my family. I may be husband and father - but I am also guardian for them too.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey, have I mentioned my new book? It is called:
MEN ARE FROM MARS and WOMEN JUST NEED TO DEAL WITH IT!
 
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