need help, M1 Garand with long copper bullets

S

Shadow9mm

New member
So I load 30-06, but have never loaded for a Garand before an need a little help.

Standard Garand loads loads, Not wanting to hot rod anything, and can't afford to bend a rod, but ok with Garand max loads. The rifle does have one of the expanded gas plugs so that modern ammo can be shot in it safely, however that is more of a safety precaution/backup and only Garand loads have been put through it.

The bullet will be the Lehigh Controlled Chaos 152g. Its solid copper and on the long side 1.272in

Primers. I know with the AR some are not recommended. I only have regular large rifle, but I do have CCI, Remington, and Winchester to choose from

Powder will be Varget

Brass will be RP

Only Garand specific data I have is from Hornady
for 150-155g bullets. all bullets listed are standard format, no solid copper.
Start Varget 42.3 start at 2400fps
Middle, Varget, 44.2, for 2500fps
MAX 46.2g 2600fs

I'm concerned with the long bullet taking up extra case volume it could push pressures up. Do these loads seems reasonable to work off of for testing?

The rifle does have one of the expanded gas plugs so that modern ammo can be shot in it safely, however that is more of a safety precaution/backup, not trying to over do things.

Do the bullets need to be crimped? These do not have a crimp groove as such but I do have the lee factory crimp die so I can give it a little squeeze if needed.

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All I can give you is pure speculation. Don't count on it. I don't even load copper bullets. I know nothing about the bullet you have chosen.

Copper bullets being longer,and perhaps harder to engrave,there COULD be initially higher pressure for the first inches down the barrel.Maybe.
The bullet in the pic looks like it was designed as an artillery projectile!! I don't see anything to complain about. The relieved driving bands (IMO) should engrave easily with little pressure increase.


I would expect that by the time the bullet reached the gas port,things have pretty much normalized. I don't know why a copper bullet would be different from a copper jacketed lead bullet after 20 plus inches barrel travel.

I do think you are taking appropriate caution. Better safe than sorry!!

I'll be interested to hear feedback from Unclenick and Bart. They are some rungs up on the credibility ladder.
 
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CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.

Shadow9mm

Starting off with 42gr of varget is totally safe with this bullet according to quickload and it is low enough that high pressure peak should not hurt the op rod. I have never used Varget in my M1's some say it is safe some say it is not or right on the border of being safe. I keep IMR 4895 on hand for my M1 Garand.
Quickload Data

It is totally up to you if you want to trust this quickload data as it is generic. Meaning I do not know the burn rate of your Varget batch or the H20 capacity of your cases you are using.

Though I only use safe loads in my M1 with IMR 4895 to not beat up such a nostalgic piece of American History I installed a Garandgear gas plug. This gas plug expands the volume of the of the gas cylinder therefore reducing the peak gas pressure in the gas tube.
http://www.garandgear.com/ported-gas-plug.html

If you believe their research you can then fire factory 30-06 ammo thru your garand, me I stay with my safe Garand loads while adding this as a piece of insurance for peace of mind.

I hope this helps. Oh yeah not affiliated with Garand Gear in any way, though I do love the product due to the fact that other gas plugs have set screws that in my view is a pain to set, especially if you use different loads.
 

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I'm no garand loading expert by any means. I have loaded for mine using AA2495 and IMR4895 with 150gr Hornady FMJs and found satisfactory accuracy and function but that was about the extent of it.

I'd be interested to see where you end up OAL-wise as I found my rifle liked the 150s seated out at 3.24" much more than the 3.185" length Hornady reccomends.

I used CCI #200 primers without any issues and I see Hornady used WLR in the 9th edition manual.
 
Others may poo-poo it, but I'd sure feel more comfortable
using military-spec primers/#34 -- especially in Garand.
 
I am curious, other than "I don't have anything else" WHY would you use that particular bullet in a Garand???

The Garand is a very efficient machine, but its designed and built to run properly on a very narrow range of "fuel" (ammo) and using an all copper bullet (which is necessarily considerably longer) than a regular lead core bullet of the same weight just seems to me to be an unneeded complication.

Besides the extra length taking up room in the case there is also the question of the bearing surface area (and alloy) which can have an effect on the pressure level of "standard" loads.

Suggest you contact the bullet MAKER and see if they have a recommendation for a load with that bullet in the M1 Garand.
 
Mr.RevolverGuy said:
Shadow9mm

Starting off with 42gr of varget is totally safe with this bullet according to quickload and it is low enough that high pressure peak should not hurt the op rod. I have never used Varget in my M1's some say it is safe some say it is not or right on the border of being safe. I keep IMR 4895 on hand for my M1 Garand.
Quickload Data

It is totally up to you if you want to trust this quickload data as it is generic. Meaning I do not know the burn rate of your Varget batch or the H20 capacity of your cases you are using.

Though I only use safe loads in my M1 with IMR 4895 to not beat up such a nostalgic piece of American History I installed a Garandgear gas plug. This gas plug expands the volume of the of the gas cylinder therefore reducing the peak gas pressure in the gas tube.
http://www.garandgear.com/ported-gas-plug.html

If you believe their research you can then fire factory 30-06 ammo thru your garand, me I stay with my safe Garand loads while adding this as a piece of insurance for peace of mind.

I hope this helps. Oh yeah not affiliated with Garand Gear in any way, though I do love the product due to the fact that other gas plugs have set screws that in my view is a pain to set, especially if you use different loads.
Click to expand...
that's the gas plug I am working with as well. Same thing. Just a safety buffer. unfortunately with the shortage I dont have a Lot of options. Only rifle powder I have are CFE223, Benchamrk, Varget, RL17, and Big Game. Of those varget seemed the best bet
 
mehavey said:
Others may poo-poo it, but I'd sure feel more comfortable
using military-spec primers/#34 -- especially in Garand.
Click to expand...
I would happily use #34, however as they are going for $35 per 100, plus 19.99 for shipping and tax, I'm gonna have use use what I have for now.
 
44 AMP said:
I am curious, other than "I don't have anything else" WHY would you use that particular bullet in a Garand???

The Garand is a very efficient machine, but its designed and built to run properly on a very narrow range of "fuel" (ammo) and using an all copper bullet (which is necessarily considerably longer) than a regular lead core bullet of the same weight just seems to me to be an unneeded complication.

Besides the extra length taking up room in the case there is also the question of the bearing surface area (and alloy) which can have an effect on the pressure level of "standard" loads.

Suggest you contact the bullet MAKER and see if they have a recommendation for a load with that bullet in the M1 Garand.
Click to expand...

Based on the bullet design, the bearing surface is minimal if you note the rifling marks in the pic.
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As to why that bullet in a Garand... Why not? I feel like so many people treat the Garand like a mythical icon or a collectors item. It is a battle rifle designed and intended to be used. Yes it has its limitations, but as long as you stay within the intended parameters, it will rock and roll. My goal is to use it, but not abuse it.
 

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mehavey said:
So be it.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6223355&postcount=8
Click to expand...
Ok, I will be testing primers in the gun with no charge and check the size of the dent to see if any are suitable to get my by for a bit. From the reading I have been doing here http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=89797 Most slam fires seem to be attributed to poorly seated primers. Will test to be safe, but I think they will work. If not I will be shelling out the big bucks for #34s...
 
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As board member Slamfire has illustrated and documented well, sensitive primers can lead not only to slamfires, but occasionally to OOB (Out-Of-Battery) firings that destroy the gun. Slamfire had one that he knows was not a high primer, but was with a Federal primer, so he recommends against them. Some Winchester primers (the brass-colored ones) also have had problems with excess sensitivity at times.
 
Currently have winchester, remington, and cci large rifle primers. Just want to load 1 small batch.... its a hard pill to swallow to pay close to $60 for 100 primers.... that's almost as much as the bullets....
 
I've been using CCI 200 primers in .308 Win and in an M1A for decades. there is always a little dimple in the primer from the firing pin bouncing off it when the action shuts, but so far, never had one fire, so in MY gun, with MY loading techniques, I consider them safe enough.

In your gun, I have no idea what could happen.
 
I think that depends on the gun being in spec, too. I was a volunteer line coach at a DCM club beginner's match in the '80s for which all the Garands were provided by the DCM club and the ammunition was DCM-supplied Lake City M2 Ball, and there was a Slamfire that occurred at that event. So even properly seated and military primers aren't totally immune to the possibility.

Like many Garand owner's, I used Federal primers without mishap for a time, though I switched to military sensitivity spec primers later. I believe the CCI 200s are less sensitive than Federal and non-plated Winchester. If you have some of the old plated cup Winchester, that might be a good choice as the reason they stopped playing them about twenty years ago was to address complaints about lack of sensitivity. Apparently that plating hardened the cups some.
 
Unclenick said:
I think that depends on the gun being in spec, too. I was a volunteer line coach at a DCM club beginner's match in the '80s for which all the Garands were provided by the DCM club and the ammunition was DCM-supplied Lake City M2 Ball, and there was a Slamfire that occurred at that event. So even properly seated and military primers aren't totally immune to the possibility.

Like many Garand owner's, I used Federal primers without mishap for a time, though I switched to military sensitivity spec primers later. I believe the CCI 200s are less sensitive than Federal and non-plated Winchester. If you have some of the old plated cup Winchester, that might be a good choice as the reason they stopped playing them about twenty years ago was to address complaints about lack of sensitivity. Apparently that plating hardened the cups some.
Click to expand...
I do have CCI 200s, will test with those first.

Do the powder charges from Hornady seem right? Do you think I will need to adjust them due to the longer copper bullet protruding into the case more?
 
I think you'll be fine with the starting loads. They leave a lot of empty space in the case. I also note that Hornady runs their solid GMX bullets at the same load levels as their same-weight cup-and-core bullets in their bolt-gun 30-06 loads, so they must be mild enough for both. The Garand action is strong, and between that and the Garand Gear plug, you should be in good shape.
 
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