Mike Irwin
Staff
I keep looking for another Brazilian copy M1917 so I can do exactly that with it....
Need Help from Vintage S&W Gurus
- Thread starter Webleymkv
- Start date
With all the expertise around, perhaps I should not even comment. But those crossed pennants are the British military proof mark, and the broad arrow is the British military property mark. The other mark is the British military inspection stamp. Canada did not use a proof mark and its property mark is a broad arrow inside a "C". Do not confuse the British military markings with British commercial proof marks which were put on when a gun was sold out of military stores and released on the commercial market or for export.
I know that SCSW says that guns in .45 Colt are "reported" but as usual doesn't say by whom or on what information the statement is based. Neal & Jinks do not mention any guns in .45 Colt in the Canadian shipment, and it seems very unlikely, since those guns were for the Canadian Army, which was dependent on the British Army for its ammunition supply.
Jim
I know that SCSW says that guns in .45 Colt are "reported" but as usual doesn't say by whom or on what information the statement is based. Neal & Jinks do not mention any guns in .45 Colt in the Canadian shipment, and it seems very unlikely, since those guns were for the Canadian Army, which was dependent on the British Army for its ammunition supply.
Jim
Winchester_73
New member
45 Colt Canadian contract second models - rare but real
I will pretend here that you were not being sarcastic
Jimmy K is right on here. Unfortunately I do not know much about such subjects, and I quoted the SCSW 3rd ed. See below. Just goes to show, that the book has many errors. It is actually known to have several errors, so be careful. Of course however, it has a lot of good information.
Here is the info I was quoting, which I trusted to be correct, when I made mention.
That all makes sense, but I have a friend who saw one which lettered, and he knows of another collector who has one which lettered. I see no reason he would make up such a thing. Perhaps the 45 Colt guns were intended to be a replacement for the Colt New Service guns that Webleymkv mentions? The Neal and Jinks book is quite a bit older than the SCSW 3rd ed, so its possible that there was not info known at that time of the Neal and Jinks book about these 45 colt guns.
My assumption about this 45 colt contract is that some agency within their government at one time had Colt SAAs in that caliber, then upgraded to the New Colt New Service DA 45s, and replaced those with the S&W N frame 45 colt guns. Its not like the .455 webley does anything better than the 45 colt. Of course supplying ammo could have been an issue, but if they were sidearms for a government agency (say their national police force or something) how much ammo would they really need? The fact that Canada borders the US would mean acquisition of 45 colt ammo would not have been particularly difficult.
Here is the book citation, for what its worth:
I will pretend here that you were not being sarcastic
Jimmy K is right on here. Unfortunately I do not know much about such subjects, and I quoted the SCSW 3rd ed. See below. Just goes to show, that the book has many errors. It is actually known to have several errors, so be careful. Of course however, it has a lot of good information.
Here is the info I was quoting, which I trusted to be correct, when I made mention.
That all makes sense, but I have a friend who saw one which lettered, and he knows of another collector who has one which lettered. I see no reason he would make up such a thing. Perhaps the 45 Colt guns were intended to be a replacement for the Colt New Service guns that Webleymkv mentions? The Neal and Jinks book is quite a bit older than the SCSW 3rd ed, so its possible that there was not info known at that time of the Neal and Jinks book about these 45 colt guns.
My assumption about this 45 colt contract is that some agency within their government at one time had Colt SAAs in that caliber, then upgraded to the New Colt New Service DA 45s, and replaced those with the S&W N frame 45 colt guns. Its not like the .455 webley does anything better than the 45 colt. Of course supplying ammo could have been an issue, but if they were sidearms for a government agency (say their national police force or something) how much ammo would they really need? The fact that Canada borders the US would mean acquisition of 45 colt ammo would not have been particularly difficult.
Here is the book citation, for what its worth:
That is from SCSW, so it can't really be used as proof of itself.
FWIW, the "deaccession" broad arrow mentioned is the practice, when a British military property gun was sold, of stamping a second broad arrow point-to-point with the first, often resulting in what looks like an asterisk.
Back to those 724 revolvers. There are several reasons for my skepticism.
The first is that they were part of a contract for .455 revolvers for the Canadian Army. While the RCMP could have "hitchhiked" on an Army contract, it seems unlikely when the Army needed guns desperately before shipping out for France. (Remember how desperate for handguns the U.S. Army was a bit later?)
The second is that it seems unlikely that the RCMP would want to add yet another revolver, with the attendant logistics trail (parts supply, armorer training, officer training) involved, especially when they already had the Colt New Service and Colt would have been willing to sell them that number of New Service revolvers in .45 Colt "off the shelf".
Since S&W was working to fill a fairly large revolver contract for .455 caliber, changing to .45 Colt for a few guns would seem unlikely, though obviously not impossible.
The "724 guns for Canada in .45 Colt" sounds a bit like one of those stories used to explain why the gun being sold at a high price is not one of the more common .455 guns converted to .45 Colt later on, but is one of the "real, genuine, golly gumdrops special order revolvers for the RCMP and worth $_____ but just for you, I'll let it go for $______" (fill in blanks). (And of course, ignore that dent on the barrel where the second "5" used to be.)
As to the letter, of course, any of those guns will letter; it would be interesting to see if the letter says the gun was originally made in .45 Colt and was part of the British military shipment.
Note that all models of the .44 HE were available on special order in .45 Colt, but the SCSW statement seems to apply specifically to the .455 caliber revolvers produced under the British contract.
Jim
FWIW, the "deaccession" broad arrow mentioned is the practice, when a British military property gun was sold, of stamping a second broad arrow point-to-point with the first, often resulting in what looks like an asterisk.
Back to those 724 revolvers. There are several reasons for my skepticism.
The first is that they were part of a contract for .455 revolvers for the Canadian Army. While the RCMP could have "hitchhiked" on an Army contract, it seems unlikely when the Army needed guns desperately before shipping out for France. (Remember how desperate for handguns the U.S. Army was a bit later?)
The second is that it seems unlikely that the RCMP would want to add yet another revolver, with the attendant logistics trail (parts supply, armorer training, officer training) involved, especially when they already had the Colt New Service and Colt would have been willing to sell them that number of New Service revolvers in .45 Colt "off the shelf".
Since S&W was working to fill a fairly large revolver contract for .455 caliber, changing to .45 Colt for a few guns would seem unlikely, though obviously not impossible.
The "724 guns for Canada in .45 Colt" sounds a bit like one of those stories used to explain why the gun being sold at a high price is not one of the more common .455 guns converted to .45 Colt later on, but is one of the "real, genuine, golly gumdrops special order revolvers for the RCMP and worth $_____ but just for you, I'll let it go for $______" (fill in blanks). (And of course, ignore that dent on the barrel where the second "5" used to be.)
As to the letter, of course, any of those guns will letter; it would be interesting to see if the letter says the gun was originally made in .45 Colt and was part of the British military shipment.
Note that all models of the .44 HE were available on special order in .45 Colt, but the SCSW statement seems to apply specifically to the .455 caliber revolvers produced under the British contract.
Jim
Winchester_73
New member
Jim
You raise good points. A friend of mine (fellow S&W collector) personally examined one of the Canadian 45 colts. One of the tell tale ways to counter your assumption of a converted .455 is to see how the gun was made in 45 colt. Factory examples were made in the same way as the 44 special, whereas the large thick case rim issue would have been solved by positioning the cylinder appropriately, so there would be clearance. This would have necessitated most likely a shorter forcing cone, IMO, or perhaps a shorter cylinder. Logistically, the .455 cylinders were probably used, but were reamed and placed in a position where clearance was achieved. Countersinking would not have been done by the factory to achieve this. Aside from all of that, there is little likelihood that between both reaming and countersinking being needed that even a great gunsmith could fool everyone. There would be a difference between the two (factory 45 colt vs conversion) as its unlikely any gunsmith would have converted any .455 in a way that S&W made original 45 colt guns. If they were already tooled up to make .455s, 45 colt would not have been very difficult IMO to make simultaneously.
IMO the Canadian logistics issue(s) in this regard would be minor, since it was only 724 revolvers, when they were getting tens of thousands of .455s. I doubt very much government 45 colt revolvers would have required tons of ammo. Also, in a sense, it makes more sense for the Canadians to purchase 45 Colt guns (assuming there was a need) since S&W got the contract for the .455s over Colt. From a logistic parts perspective, everything would interchange except the cylinder. Everything else would be the same. So in other words, since there would be so many .455 guns and parts, it does make more sense to order 45 Colts from S&W over Colt. As for the ammo, they would have already had some 45 colt on hand due to the New Service contract.
As for the 45 Colt guns being part of the MKII series or not, I was told their SN falls in line with MKII series SN range, and they may have their own range, although I never came across this info.
I think the more likely scenario, since it says precisely "724" is that Roy Jinks himself found the actual shipping ledgers with these revolvers and accompanying serial numbers, and he passed on what he discovered to the S&W Collectors association, and then it later was mentioned in the SCSW 3rd. He is of course able to examine the records, and when anomalies or interesting pieces are found, the word gets out. I would give more credit to your theory if there was a vague amount given (rather than an exact number) such as "some known to be in 45 colt" or "a small number shipped in 45 colt to Canadian government."
I will attempt to get a photo from the one collector (and perhaps one other one) who I was told has one. I could then post it here. I agree it will be interesting to see what it says. It is possible that the 45 colt contract guns were different from the .455s perhaps in that they were made first, or that they lacked the lanyard, etc. I never asked, but its possible that they were actually triple locks rather than 2nd models. There was some overlap of SN btw. IIRC triple locks are 1 to 15000 whereas .455 Second models start at approx 5k. There were also triple locks converted to .455 early on.
You raise good points. A friend of mine (fellow S&W collector) personally examined one of the Canadian 45 colts. One of the tell tale ways to counter your assumption of a converted .455 is to see how the gun was made in 45 colt. Factory examples were made in the same way as the 44 special, whereas the large thick case rim issue would have been solved by positioning the cylinder appropriately, so there would be clearance. This would have necessitated most likely a shorter forcing cone, IMO, or perhaps a shorter cylinder. Logistically, the .455 cylinders were probably used, but were reamed and placed in a position where clearance was achieved. Countersinking would not have been done by the factory to achieve this. Aside from all of that, there is little likelihood that between both reaming and countersinking being needed that even a great gunsmith could fool everyone. There would be a difference between the two (factory 45 colt vs conversion) as its unlikely any gunsmith would have converted any .455 in a way that S&W made original 45 colt guns. If they were already tooled up to make .455s, 45 colt would not have been very difficult IMO to make simultaneously.
IMO the Canadian logistics issue(s) in this regard would be minor, since it was only 724 revolvers, when they were getting tens of thousands of .455s. I doubt very much government 45 colt revolvers would have required tons of ammo. Also, in a sense, it makes more sense for the Canadians to purchase 45 Colt guns (assuming there was a need) since S&W got the contract for the .455s over Colt. From a logistic parts perspective, everything would interchange except the cylinder. Everything else would be the same. So in other words, since there would be so many .455 guns and parts, it does make more sense to order 45 Colts from S&W over Colt. As for the ammo, they would have already had some 45 colt on hand due to the New Service contract.
As for the 45 Colt guns being part of the MKII series or not, I was told their SN falls in line with MKII series SN range, and they may have their own range, although I never came across this info.
I think the more likely scenario, since it says precisely "724" is that Roy Jinks himself found the actual shipping ledgers with these revolvers and accompanying serial numbers, and he passed on what he discovered to the S&W Collectors association, and then it later was mentioned in the SCSW 3rd. He is of course able to examine the records, and when anomalies or interesting pieces are found, the word gets out. I would give more credit to your theory if there was a vague amount given (rather than an exact number) such as "some known to be in 45 colt" or "a small number shipped in 45 colt to Canadian government."
I will attempt to get a photo from the one collector (and perhaps one other one) who I was told has one. I could then post it here. I agree it will be interesting to see what it says. It is possible that the 45 colt contract guns were different from the .455s perhaps in that they were made first, or that they lacked the lanyard, etc. I never asked, but its possible that they were actually triple locks rather than 2nd models. There was some overlap of SN btw. IIRC triple locks are 1 to 15000 whereas .455 Second models start at approx 5k. There were also triple locks converted to .455 early on.
There are two other situations. First, the .44 HE (so-called) was made in .45 Colt and some could duplicate the serial numbers of the British contract. Those guns would have .45 markings, cylinders would not be conversions but normal S&W cylinders (no rim recesses) and with normal serial numbering. It is barely possible that a revolver in .45 Colt was sold commercially in England, so there might be commercial proofs, but it would not likely have military proofs, as would the .455 contract guns.
FWIW, I suspect someone examining the records (or the records themselves) confused 724 .44 HE revolvers special ordered in .45 Colt, with .45 Colt revolvers that were part of the British contract. That would explain the small number and also the odd number (a contract would likely be for an even number, like 500 or 700).
If the 724 revolvers were made the same way as the rest of the British contract, and if the same frames and cylinders were used as for the .455's it should be able to tell that by measuring the frame and cylinder. Both the cylinder and the cylinder window were slightly enlarged for the .455 contract revolvers; that was not done for the .44 HE's made in .455.
JIm
FWIW, I suspect someone examining the records (or the records themselves) confused 724 .44 HE revolvers special ordered in .45 Colt, with .45 Colt revolvers that were part of the British contract. That would explain the small number and also the odd number (a contract would likely be for an even number, like 500 or 700).
If the 724 revolvers were made the same way as the rest of the British contract, and if the same frames and cylinders were used as for the .455's it should be able to tell that by measuring the frame and cylinder. Both the cylinder and the cylinder window were slightly enlarged for the .455 contract revolvers; that was not done for the .44 HE's made in .455.
JIm