Need gun laws for OK,MO,IL, and IN

D

Darthmaum

New member
I've been searching the web on info about those four states gun laws and haven't had much luck, so's I was hoping some of you would help me out.

To get to the TFL Meet, my family and I will have to travel thru OK to get to MO. Jedi and I both have CHL's and I know about the reciprocity agreement w/ OK, but what do their laws specifically say about concealed carry, and carrying firearms in your car?

After the TFL Meet, we'll be heading on to Indiana to visit my sister. The quickest route would be thru IL, but I dunno about their laws, or IN's. I know we won't be able to carry concealed in these two states, but what about transporting firearms in our vehicle? I sure hope we don't have to bypass IL, that's going to be really out of the way!

Thanks in advance for educating me, TTFN!

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"At last we shall reveal ourselves to the Gun-Grabbers, at last we shall have revenge at The TFL End of Summer Meet on August 12 & 13, 2000..."
 
You will be alright in Okla.,the rest I have no clue.
Well you will be ok if you don't drive like a bat out of hell. I know how you Texakins is. :)
 
Great site Terri! Thanks for the info.

Darthmaum, Illinios recognizes NO rights on CCW. Put em in locked or sealed boxes in your trunk with ammo separate and you'll be OK. I hate traveling through the Socialist Republic of Ill, but when you live right next door you often don't have a choice.

Indiana state law says it will recognize your carry permit if your state recognizes ours. The best thing to do would be to call the State Police and ask just to be sure. 1-800-582-8440.

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Refuse to be a "helpless" victim.
Knowing Your Rights WAGC in Indiana
Come have some fun at theTFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
Blueydog, I am sorry to correct you, but Indiana recognizes ALL CHL from any state! It just makes me feel good to live here in Indiana and for of you out there want to visit, don't forget to bring you protection!

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"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."

--Ayn Rand, in "The Nature of Government"
 
If you're from Texas, you're fine in OK.
Missouri has no concealed carry. Pack it away in the trunk, unloaded, unless you're on the way to a range. The big city legislators control the laws in Misery.
 
Are you guys serious about being able to carry in IN? Woo-hoo! I was really dreading going up there unprotected, having to leave the "babies" at my sister's house.

The only thing now is, how to approach her about us bringing our arsenal to her house? (she's a fence sitter, BTW)

RHC, are you saying that even though it's perfectly lawful to open carry in Misery that we might end up getting into trouble anyway if we do that?

Terri, if we have our shotguns by then, we may leave them with y'all if you don't mind. My sister would probably be Okay w/ the handguns, but she'd probably be scared of them big ol' longguns. I'll go check out that link you posted!

Thanks again everyone...

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"At last we shall reveal ourselves to the Gun-Grabbers, at last we shall have revenge at The TFL End of Summer Meet on August 12 & 13, 2000..."
 
Darth, email me your addy and I will snail mail you the booklet printed by the OSBI which has all the CCW and other (non-CCW) guns laws. If you can reconcile the conflicts and ambiguities, let me know - I'd love to figure them out. [All in all, pretty safe though, if locked in trunk & unloaded].
 
You are good in Ok. and In. Ill. is out. Drop down from Mo. to Ar. and go into the tip of Ky. then up to In. You are legal all the way. There is an open carry in Mo., but it can be restricted by cities so be careful. I also found that Mo. has concealed carry without a permit, but it is like the Texas 'travelling' clause. I am encountering the same problem going to the shoot in Mo. from In. so I wrote them. Below is my email and their response.

My email:
Greetings. I am a resident of Austin, Tx. I have also qualified for a Texas Concealed Handgun License after successfully completing a class on the use of lethal force, conflict resolution, qualification at the range, and a background investigation. I am currently in Indiana, a
state who recognizes my Texas CHL. After reading the Missouri statutes:

Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he knowingly:
(1) Carries concealed upon or about his person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or...

3. ... Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply when the actor ... is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state.

It is apparent that Missouri does not make exceptions for recognition of the Texas CHL, BUT Missouri DOES permit:
1) according to Subdivision (1), open carry or NOT concealed carry, a handgun in a belt holster or in a shoulder holster in plain view,

- and -
2) according to Subdivision (3) gives an exemption to allow CONCEALED carry when the person is 'traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state.'

On this I question the term 'continuous.'

The reason I need this clarification is that I will be traveling across Missouri. In Texas the courts have ruled that 'traveling' reasonably and correctly includes stops for food, gas, and bathroom breaks. I need to
know if these conditions also apply to a 'continuous journey' in Missouri.
If not, I will have to carry openly while in your state and make certain that the firearm is on the dashboard while I am actually in my car. I am a bit familiar with the Western District Appeals court decision No. WD48205 and its view that a traffic stop in not an interuption in the continuous
journey. My wheelchair bound mother will also be traveling with me and it is not possible for her to travel across the entire state 'non-stop' if that is your definition of 'continuous'.

Their response:
Mr. York,

We received your e-mail message. As an out-of-state resident traveling through Missouri, a continuous journey peaceably through the state would not mean a nonstop journey. Those instances where a stop is reasonable and necessary would not violate the "continuous journey" exception of Section
571.030, RSMo. I hope your journey is safe and without unfortunate incident.

Jeananne Markway
Field Operations Bureau
Missouri State Highway Patrol
 
Yes its true In Indiana you can carry, even openly if you like. For the other states, If you are scared about it. I was told by, of all people a leo, to get a lockable briefcase and bolt it to your trunk so it can't be moved. Then put your gun in it and lock it up. If the cop asks you for soem reason whats in it tell them "legal private property" if they ask you to open ask them for a search warrant. They obviously dont have one and just ask if your under arrest, if they say no then leave.

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"We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force."

--Ayn Rand, in "The Nature of Government"

[This message has been edited by hoosierboy (edited June 05, 2000).]
 
This confusion about how to carry or transport a firearm thopugh Missouri has come up before.
I would still personally give the same advice I have always given: The only fool proof way to carry any firearm in a vehicle is locked in the trunk and never give any LEO permission to search your vehicle.
If you transport it any other way, you might be O.K. or you might be in real, felony type trouble. It all depends on who stops you and where.
Missouri is in complete chaos as far a firearms laws go. We have all kinds of laws, all kinds of police, all kinds of D.A.s and all kinds of judges that will interpret the law as they bloody well see fit. It doesn't make any difference if what you are doing is perfectly fine in the next town or county over.
Most of the land mass of the state is controlled by very pro-2nd amendment people. and we have a pro-2nd Amendment legislature. But we also have a rabidly anti-gun Governor and rabidly anti-gun Mayors in the City of St. Louis and Kansas City (I take).
There is no discipline or consistency in the leagal area because we are currently in a political stalemate on these issues. Things could change rapidly after the 2000 elections, but this is not certain.
Absolutely do not travel around with a firearm on the dashboard of a vehicle in Missouri. I can think of no better way to to bring misery down on your haed than to try to pull this stunt.
Do not travel around with a weapon concealed on your person. It is a felony everywhere.
Do not travel with a firearm visible in your car. This will be interpreted by some juridictions as carrying a concealed weapon. Open carry means you are on foot. Even then, you have to worry about the local gendarmes.
If this is too much for you, don't travel through Missouri or take a small chance that you life as a non-felon will be lost forever, as you prefer. Most likely, nothing will happen to you. But this cannot be garanteed.

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited June 06, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Herodotus (edited June 06, 2000).]
 
Jeff,

So you don't think we'd be safe in IL if we carried the guns locked in our trunk and unloaded? I was afraid we might have to bypass IL, but I was hoping to not have to.

Futo,

You've got mail, and thanks! :)

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"At last we shall reveal ourselves to the Gun-Grabbers, at last we shall have revenge at The TFL End of Summer Meet on August 12 & 13, 2000..."
 
Another thing, we have an SUV (GASP) and it doesn't have a separate trunk. I'd thought about sticking the guns in their cases w/ locks on them and the ammo up front w/ us. Cable locks thru the shotguns. Do y'all think that'd be adequate?
 
Darthmaum...

If you do what the MO Highway Patrol stated to Jegg OTMG... when you get into KC (and most likly St. Louis) the local police will not abide by the state laws... only the city ord's.

rifles/handguns in the trunk, unloaded, no magazines in them (even if empty) ammo can be there in a separate box or in the glove box... in your case in an SUV put all in the back on the vehicle and ammo in the glove box.... lock everything up!! an open case is an excuse for "readily accessible" interpetation (even if it isn't!!) it is also wise to cover everything with a blanket or something so that they cannot be seen throught the rear/side windows. If they can see it... it is not secured!!

many years ago I had this problem with our local boys in blue (well,... brown in those days) and to this day many of the guys in our range club STILL get lectured about how is transport through the city....

also... RHC is right... KC, for example, the police are not really city police.. they are regulated by a local police board but controlled by the capital legislators...have been since the Pedergast days (a local political BOSS from years ago)


Herodotus is right on also...
 
Darth, so long as you are in a regular car with a trunk you can pass through Ill. in compliance with FOPA '86. A SUV, hatchback, or station wagon would not qualify. Do what you want about Ill., I carry, but if you do don't get caught.

In Mo. Kansas City and St Louis do have their own sets of gun laws. I won't be in Kansas City (neither will you) and I won't be stopping anywhere near St. Louis (I suggest that you don't either). If something should happen my attorney in St Louis is the chief council for the mob and has an excellent track record in city and state district courts. I am taking a copy of the letter from the MSHP with me should there be any question, but in all truth no LEO has ever made me in nearly 20 years, including while sitting next to them in the patrol car while deciding whether or not to give me a ticket.
 
Jeff,
What's the acronym FOPA stand for, the Firearm Ownership Prevention Act? :D So we could transport our guns *quasilegally* in a CAR thru IL, but if we happen to be one of those unfortunates who has a SUV, truck whatever, we can't have guns? RUNH? that don't make sense. I guess we will have to avoid IL, they make me ILL!

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"At last we shall reveal ourselves to the Gun-Grabbers, at last we shall have revenge at The TFL End of Summer Meet on August 12 & 13, 2000..."
 
Called the McClure-Volkmer Bill it was passed in 1986 as the Firearms Owners Protection Act. It permits a person in lawful possession of a firearm to travel from a place where they may legally have it to a place where they may legally have it, if it is transported unloaded in a locked hardcase in the trunk of a car, separate from the ammo. This know allows people to drive across NY state to go hunting and to fly through Chicago O'Hare Airport. It is a federal law and overrides any state, county, or city statute or ordinance. See if you can find the exact wording, but I think that the case must be inaccessable to the occupants and only a car with a trunk would qualify. Maybe an SUW with a roof mounted storage box? Check www.packing.org and see what they say about transporting in a motor vehicle in Ill.
 
I didn't know about FOPA. When I went to Tennessee (from MO) to see my folks I took part of my collection to show my dad. I put them and the ammo in the tool box of my pick up. The ammo wasn't seperate (it was in the locked tool box too) from the guns, but since neither was accessable from the cab, I assume this was probably ok even in IL?
 
FOPA no doubt does apply and protect non-residents of Missouri while in travel accross the state. I must admit not hearing of any cases of out of state residents being harrased in crossing the state. As a Missourian, I usually just worry about the situation for residents.
The confusion in Missouri revolves around the way the state constitution handles the RKBA. Our constitution recognizes the citizen's right to keep and bare arms. In practice, there is no regulation of long arms in this state. Handguns must be permitted with the sheriff of the county in which you live. In a few places, this permitting is misused (City of St. Louis for sure), but in most places it is not. In St. Louis County (much bigger and more populous than the City), they make you pick up the permit at the County Court House and if you are are a felon, they pick you up right then, not even having to track you down. For non-felons, it means about a weeks delay in taking possession of a handgun if you buy it through a dealer. This is not good for RKBA, but that's the way it has been for a long time.
The confusion comes from the fact that the state constitution then goes on to state that the carring of concealed weapons can be regulated.
When a person is on foot or horseback, it is usually pretty clear if he is openly carrying a weapon. The problem comes with vehicles.
Is a man with a handgun in a holster on his belt, but sitting in an automobile, carrying a concealed weapon? Most people around him, including police, cannot see it.
Is a weapon sitting within reach in a vehicle concealed? If so, how far away must it be before it is just being carried in the vehicle and not concealed by the person? Some places like the City of St. Louis would want your rifle locked in the trunk, while many others would not care if you had it in a rack right behind you in your pick-up truck.
You should realize the City of St. Louis is only a small fraction (400,000) of the big St. Louis metropolitan area (2.9 million people on both sides of the Mississippi). You will just have to look at a map to see were it is. They often put up speed traps on I-44 and I think also on I-70 (don't go up there too much), so if you don't speed through there, you are unlikely to meet their LEO's. I would advise just driving straight through there, as the Mayor is sueing the gun companies and also because this little enclave has the highest murder rate of any political entity in the U.S.A. according to the FBI. If there is any place in the state were you would actually need a firearm, it would be there.
We will no doubt go to a concealed carry system sometime in the near future, perhaps with recipricosity with other states. Our current Governor is the infamous Mel Carnahan, whom you all know and hate if you have read John Ross's "Unintended Consequences". He has had a largely fruitless 8 years as governor, being strong enough to stop most legislation in many areas with the threat of his veto, but not strrong enough to pass any of his own programs, which is good for us. He will be gone in six months time. Both the Democratic and the Republican front runners say they will sign a concealed carry law of some sort if elected, so we have a potential win/win situation set up in the coming election.
That should allow us something new, legal concealed carry, but ironically, may not clear up the question of ordinary people transporting firearms in vehicles. Maybe we can get something done on that issue as well.
 
I've seen it interpeted that MO law regarding open carry in a vehicle means that the firearm must be visible to an officer walking up to the vehicle. It does not say this in any reg or law I've found and off the top of my head I can't recall where I saw this interpetation so take it FWIW. That's why you see the long guns in the back windows of pick ups - there is no doubt its open carry. Handguns are more problematic.
 
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