Need advice on BULLPUP style rifles

S

Sacco583

New member
I have recently taken a great interrest in the bullpup style configuration. I've never used one so I need some good advice. Is this something worth looking into or just something to keep the sales reps busy?
The turn on's for me when talking about a bullpup is a full length barrel in a shorter almost SMG sized rifle. The benefits in close quarters and for home deffence are -as far as I know- unmatched. But are they really that good?
So, my real question: What are the pro's and con's of the bullpup? The more detailed the better.
The guns I am using for comparison are the Bushmaster XM15 A3 16" shorty and the Bushmaster M17 bullpup. Which gun has the better firing carictoristics and why? I'm not interested in accessorizing just the capabilities and limitations of these rifles.
Thank you for your reply. The more detailed the better.
 
The ability to get a full-length barrel in a short overall length package is attractive.

Here are some points against bullpups. Most are merely "contingent", meaning that an implementation could conceivably solve them:

1. as mentioned by dZ, good triggers are generally harder to design because the transfer bar or mechanism has to be longer.

2. the natural place for the magazine to be is just in front of the butt-plate, behind the pistol grip, as is the case with the Steyr AUG and Bushmaster M17. This makes quick magazine changes more difficult than a rifle with the standard AR-style layout.

3. in the case of a KaBoom [from a bad load, faulty materials (in the case of the M14 KaBoom), or malfunction], the explosion is going throw shrapnel much closer to vital organs: neck, torso, face, arteries & veins in upper arms.

4. it is kind of cheating to count this, but we have a pretty poor selection of bullpups to choose from. The only one I am aware of in current production in the US is the M17. There are others available wordwide: in britain singapore, the AUG, etc.

5. side ejection usually means either lefties are S.O.L., or that each particular rifle must be configured for a RH or LH shooter.

On the other side - advantages:

6. more mass towards the stock and less in the "middle" of the rifle means less rotational inertia when you rotate your body with the rifle shouldered. you can turn it quicker.

7. for the same overall length, compared to a standard-layout rifle (AR-15), there will be less muzzle blast.

8. obviously more muzzle velocity than a standard-layout rifle with the same OAL.

There are probably more, but that's off the top of my head.
 
Hey thanks for the lengthy reply Smithz.
But, Has anyone actually used a rifle like this? No one I've ever talked to has been able to tell me, through actual experience, the ups and downs of this configuration.
In response:
1) Trigger pull: that sucks. I had no idea. A smooth execution of an easy trigger is a must. I only hope Bushmaster has figured that one out when putting the M17 idea to paper.
2) Reload time: Practice makes perfect. I've seen people (not in person, I'll admit) just turn the rifle to the side a bit, use the shoulder to stablize, and slap a new mag in in no time. Looks easy enough.
3) KABOOM: What are the chances really? Happens now and then, but usually to a friend of a friend, right? Let's not argue this one as it's not on the top of my list.
4) Bad selection: Let me correct you...NO selection is a little more accurate. It does, in fact, require more than one chioce to imply a "selection". I think my limit for spending is under $1500 and that's INCLUDING this tax refund (if I get it). No Styre Aug for me. Anyone want to donate?
5) Side ejection: I'm a righty. no problem. I hear shooting around corners can be hard too but how much hot brass does it take to figure out a fix for that?
6) Rotational inertia: This is a good thing. I think that's the main reason I would ever choose something like this over an XM15 A3 16". I imagine that bonus would present itself very often in combat
7) Less muzzle blast?: do you mean the muzzle climb when using rapid fire? I assume so and again this would add to faster target aquisition (like the rotational inertia piont).

Hopefully target aquisition isn't the only selling piont to this rifle. But please, if it is, by all means tell me. Distroy this rifles theoretical reputation if it deserves it.
Again, anyone that has experience with any bullpup, please, help me out here.
 
The only rifle I have ever used is a Steyr Aug so my opinion is hardly forth staking ones life on.

However going into the training involved for the Aug I had a biased opinion as most people state that the Aug is hardly the best assault rifle. So I was quite critical of it, and paid close attention to how it operates and how worthwhile it is.

If you joined an army and they shoved an Aug in your hands there would be no real reason to complain, keep it clean, take care of it and it will do its job.
As for paying money to buy one, I can't recommend doing so.
While I wouldn't mind owning one of course, there are plenty of other firearms that are more rugged, or more reliable and so forth and probably cheaper.

But I will say that the compact nature of the Aug was one of the factors that really impressed me. Also the fact that its very easy to strip and clean, put simply if its on an Aug and its plastic - hot soapy water, not forgetting the fact that basically half of the rifle is plastic.

As for the speed of mag changes, I never felt that changing a mag on a bullpup was slow by any means, at any point in time with an Aug - hit the mag release button behind the mag, then place in a new mag. You don't even have to shove the mag in by hitting the base, just a firm motion should do it. If the chamber is loaded you're ready to go, if its not quickly pull and release the bolt cocking handle, then check that the bolt is fully forward by glancing at the ejection port. That's it.
Trust me when you have a Drill Instructor yelling at you, you'd surprised how quickly you can do things :)
 
One thing that has held me back from getting a bullpup is the fear of the noise from the chamber being within an inch of my ear.
 
Most new guns like the TAVOR have an armor shield that would protect the face in case of a KB...
And most BP Rifles have crappy triggers due to mechanics.
Now, if you had an electronic grip frame that housed a long life battery and in the reciever was a solonoid that tripped the mechanism... You could have select fire - nice trigger - adjustable weight and all that.
Painball Guns have had these for years - one company that makes them is http://www.boo-yaah.com/ and it WORKS.
I've tried them on many paintball guns and it is really quite simple.
This is something that you could bolt straight onto a gun like the Bushmaster M-17 and presto - all the sudden you have a bullpup with a SWEET trigger system. Same thing for ARs and AKs... most rifles could benifit from these.
 
Sacco583 - in regard to the muzzle blast point, here it what I mean:

An AR-15 with a 16" barrel has more muzzle blast than one with a 20" barrel. More powder gets burned in a longer barrel, and there is less of a "fireball" coming out the end. A bullpup can have a 20" barrel in the same overall length than a conventional rifle could only have a 14" or 16".

-z
 
I had a Bushmaster M 17 bullpup for awhile. The trigger draw dar is a round steel shaft, seem to remember it was about 12 inchs long, it rode in a track cut into the plastic type stock. Polishing the draw bar and the track did improve the trigger pull, but not much. Lots of noise from action working next to your ear, and it was a pretty heavy little rifle. Sights that come on it are usless, put a red dot on it. Seemed like a neat idea at the time, but I sold it.
Replaced it with a Professional Ordnance, type 97, carbon fibel. I am really enjoying this one...........
 
Thanks again smithz. If I (and I will very soon) get an XM-15 from Bushmaster it's going to have the mini Y comp on it. As I understand this will reduce some of the flash. I don't really care about that anyway. Since I don't plan on sniping from a grassy knoll anytime soon - I would use a differant rifle anyway - flash is of no matter to me.

Any other firing charactoristics? And again, has anyone actually fired a bullpup? Would it be a mistake to buy the Bushmaster M-17 as apposed to the XM-15?
 
Hey Gunny6...just the kind of guy I was looking for.
How did you like the M-17? Tell me all the good and bad. I know it's a little heavy. 3 lbs or so heavier than the XM-15. That sucks but it is full length. I think I would put a 4x or 6x scope on it. Red dot is very cool, but I'll save that for the XM-15 and go for the longer range with the M-17.
Was this rifle a big pain or did it's design outweigh the bad?
 
Hold on to your horses! There is a deal being negotiated currently between IMI and Desert Eagle to partially import and manufacture IMI's bullpup design rifle. The best I've seen to date. Awesome rifle! Very hush hush deal, so you didn't hear it from me!

Robert
 
What?!?!? An IMI bullpup comming onto the market? Kepp in mind I am just a civilial limited to post-ban stuff. But are you saying that they are making a version of the TAVOR? Please tell that this is what you heard. The TAVOR is a really cool rifle. I want one. But will it be available to a law abiding chump like me? And...is it like the TAVOR?
 
I am thinking of a home defense bullpup in .223

.223 gives stopping power, but reduced penetration.

Easier to handle with one hand, for opening doors and such with off hand.

A large red dot site for both eyes open quick acquisition.

Painted in something less scary looking than all black.
 
Bushmaster's bullpup isn't exactly known for the best quality, something strange since their ARs are so good.

Bullpups are "cool" and most NATO nations have adopted them, but during the Iraqi war, the British SAS dumped their issued SA80's and carried Armalite M16s, -because they could! That should tell you something.

For a cheap bullpup, you could always drop a Mini-14 into a (Choate?) aftermarket bullpup stock.
 
3 of us in this little town bought Bushmaster Bull Pup M-17s close to the same time, all were post ban rifles. The sights that come on them is a real joke, they are plastic about 6 inchs apart located under the carry/charge handle, no way you could use these sights. Carry handle has a Weaver type rail moulded in, so mounting optics is no problem.
Two of the 3 worked just fine out of the box, the 3rd one needed work on the fire control croup, it did not fit tight in the stock and was moving around. Put some epoxy on it and it`s fine now, I`d hate to be the guy who takes it apart in the future.
Did not put scopes on any of them, only red dots. 20 inch barrel ,so I bet they would be pretty accurate.
Bushmaster warns against putting any type flash hider/muzzel break on them as the barrel is wraped in carbon fiber.
All in all they are pretty fun little rifles, a bit on the heavy side.
Only one guy still has his, and he`s an LEO..
 
And also quite rare now to be seen on the market and with that scarcity comes a premium price tag. Last one I saw; for that price you could buy about 7 or 8 AK-47 types.
 
Sacco583, the answer is YES!!! How much of the original rifle would be legal under the assault weapons ban is unknown. But to get away from the import ban and magazine limitation, the rifle will be mostly manufactured in the US. Very, very touchy deal though. Can't get into details, because if I say anything more, they'll know who is talking. I'll just say that I'm extremely optimistic that this rifle will appear in the US civilian market possibly next year.

Robert

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