Need a real answer to expand my knowledge

I too am a self taught reloader. However I consider a powder scale is very essential for the novice reloader. How else are you going to know your powder charge is correct? I do not trust Lee dippers for measuring out tiny amounts of Smokeless powders with any amount of accuracy.
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I agree that when doing smaller powder charges, the margin for error gets pretty small, but after getting my powder scale and testing to see how close the dippers were, I found that they were fairly accurate and consistent (+/- 0.2 gr. when trying to get 3.2 gr.)--at least with the HP-38 powder I was using. I generally strive for just a tad warmer than the "starting loads", so even if my powder charge is a smidgen light or heavy, it isn't off nearly enough to cause a bullet a get stuck in the barrel, to damage the gun, or present safety risks. The dippers may not be ideal for maximizing accuracy, but for the distances I'm shooting, poor shot placement is caused by my shooting, not my ammo.
 
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But the .45 AR cannot be used in the Ruger single actions chambered for .45 Colt, or in the Ruger SA cylinders made for .45 ACP as the headspacing is different.
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I'm no expert and have never tried it, but I wonder if it is one of those 'a bullet will usually come out the end of the barrel if you try it, but its really not a good idea' compatible cartridges.

Blacksun,
Its good to hear I'm not alone on the 'staring at a bunch of reloading equipment, but afraid of dropping the powder' boat. There are very few resources available. Its great to have a good manual, but having an experienced person watch your every step at first sure is reassuring. There is an NRA course on reloading. A local shop offers the course at a very reasonable price when enough students sign up. I can't remember exactly what, just that it was lower than expected I signed up about a year ago and still waiting on other students.
 
I really have not understood the down loading of great cartridges or cap and ball firearm's. There are cartridges with lighter bullets and smaller powder charges that have less recoil and often in the same weight gun from the same cowboy area. Squib loads do come with dangers and problems of their own. Shooting a 32-20 in a SAA or clone is a lot less recoil than firing a 45 Colt in the same gun. Also now many of the period guns are available in rimfire configurations.
 
I'm no expert and have never tried it, but I wonder if it is one of those 'a bullet will usually come out the end of the barrel if you try it, but its really not a good idea' compatible cartridges.
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Howdy Again

Take a look at my photo of the five cartridges. The rim of the 45 Auto Rim cartridge is .090 thick. The rims of the 45 Colt and 45 Schofield cartridges are .060 thick. There is only space between the cylinder and the recoil shield of a 45 Colt revolver for a .060 thick rim. You cannot close the cylinder or the loading gate on a 45 Colt revolver if you try to chamber a 45 AR round. The rim is too thick.

The 45AR round was developed specifically for revolvers such as the S&W Model 1917 and the Colt Model 1917. These revolvers have more space behind the cylinder to allow for 45 ACP rounds on a half moon clip. The clip was necessary so the ejector could eject the rounds, there was nothing for the ejector to grab with the rimless 45 ACP round.

1917andammo.jpg




Sometime in the 1930s Remington came up with the 45 AR round with its thicker rim. These rounds could be loaded into the 1917 revolvers and the extractor could engage the rims for extraction.


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It is possible to shave .030 off the back of the cylinder in a 45 Colt single action revolver so it will accept the 45 AR rims, but then it will not be anygood for 45 Colt anymore because of the excess headspace.

It is even possible to selectively alter the rear of the cylinder of a 45 Colt single action revolver so it can chamber both rounds, but it is a custom modification. No revolver comes from the factory that can accept both 45 Colt and 45 AR rounds.
 
But the .45 AR cannot be used in the Ruger single actions chambered for .45 Colt, or in the Ruger SA cylinders made for .45 ACP as the headspacing is different.
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I'm no expert and have never tried it, but I wonder if it is one of those 'a bullet will usually come out the end of the barrel if you try it, but its really not a good idea' compatible cartridges.
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No, its not one of those "bullet out the end" situations, as you cannot get the bullet to the barrel in the first place (assuming gun and ammo is in spec).

The .45Auto Rim case rim is TOO THICK to fit in the space between the cylinder face and the recoil shield (frame) of the revolver.

You can open the loading gate, and drop a .45 Auto Rim in to the open .45acp chamber, It will drop in with a nice clunk sound. BUT you cannot rotate the cylinder enough to add another round, as the thick AR rim will bind and jam the gun.

Unless your gun is made, or modified to use .45Auto Rim brass, it simply won't work with it. Rounds may fit in the cylinder but it won't turn (or fully close if its a DA gun not made for it.)

AND, be aware that SOME guns cut for .45ACP with half moon clips will not take .45 Auto Rim brass. Colt & S&W 1917s will (these are the gun the .45AR was made to fit in), but a Webley "cut" to take .45ACP in clips MAY not take AR brass. I have one that won't.

I really have not understood the down loading of great cartridges or cap and ball firearm's.
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Simply put, it is for gamesmanship. The rules of cowboy action shooting do not require a set power level, all that matters is a hit on the target and the time it takes. Lighter recoil means faster follow up shots, meaning faster (hopefully winning) time scores.

Cowboy action shooting is also big on period "authentic" if not quite so much on period "correct". In other words, it has to look right, more than "be" right, and also, the guns in the full size rounds are completely useful off the cowboy range with regular full power ammo.

SO, people are getting .45Colt chambered guns, (period authentic) and shooting light loads in them for extra speed playing a game.

TO the OP, I would suggest your friend get a box of .45 Colt Cowboy action loads and try them to see if the recoil is what he wants.

Yes, the .45 Schofield is again available, (thanks to the demands of the cowboy action shooters), but it is as, or more expensive than regular .45 Colt, and is only a "light load" compared to full power .45 Colt loads.

There may be a "cowboy action" load for the .45 Schofield, I don't know. IF there is, then that would probably be the lightest factory load you can shoot in a .45 Colt revolver.

I had heard of the .45 Cowboy Special, but it is a "boutique" round, not in common use, or loaded by and of the major ammo makers. Apparently you can order it, but you won't find it stocked on local dealer shelves, unless (possibly) there is a local demand, such as a cowboy action club in the area.

HANDLOADING is the way to go, for greatest versatility, and once your equipment is paid for, lowest cost per round practical. Its not difficult, offers the ultimate in ammo options (you make whatever load you want) and doesn't have to be terribly expensive to begin.

The down side is, if you screw up, the only person you get to blame is you.

I've been reloading since the early 70s, and reloading the .45 Colt since 1983. Like a lot of us, we learned on our own, from books, magazine articles and trial and error. Those with an experienced local mentor were the really lucky ones.

Today, with the Internet, and TFL you have tons of experience available to answer questions and walk you through the process and give you a huge advantage on the learning curve.

Just beware of information overload! ;)
 
Simply put, it is for gamesmanship. The rules of cowboy action shooting do not require a set power level, all that matters is a hit on the target and the time it takes. Lighter recoil means faster follow up shots, meaning faster (hopefully winning) time scores.
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Howdy Again

Not quite correct. A minimum power level was introduced in Cowboy Action Shooting a couple of years ago, although it is very low.

I believe I mentioned earlier that I have cleared stuck bullets out of the bores of CAS shooters who did not put enough powder in their rounds to get the bullet out of the barrel. Have not had to do that since the minimum power level was introduced.
 
Hi, Driftwood, I didn't say Colt used the same tooling setup, I said the same basic tooling. In other words they could tweak the tooling without having to make major (and expensive) changes.* Of course, the topstrap frame required new forging dies, but by keeping most of the rest of the frame to the same dimensions as the percussion revolvers, they could carry over many of the jigs and fixtures used in the older guns.

You are correct that the SAA cylinder is larger, but most of that came from cutting down the frame below the cylinder and making it flat, not concave as in the percussion revolvers (since the frame was new, that was not important) but the position of the lockwork screws (a critical point) was nut changed, nor was another critical dimension, the center of barrel to center of base pin. Even so, a .060" increase in diameter (.03" radius) is not really significant. To have increased the radius much more would have involved changes to some critical points, and that would have added to the cost.

*The 1860, remember is really the 1851; the rebated cylinder was used to get .44 caliber in a .36 frame without changing the basic frame.

Jim

P.S. Just for fun, how did Colt later get the .455 Webley (which has a larger rim diameter than the .45 Colt) into the SAA? Easy. They drilled the chambers at an angle in the cylinder; the rear of each chamber diverges from the front so the .455 rims will fit!

Jim
 
P.S. Just for fun, how did Colt later get the .455 Webley (which has a larger rim diameter than the .45 Colt) into the SAA? Easy. They drilled the chambers at an angle in the cylinder; the rear of each chamber diverges from the front so the .455 rims will fit!
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Well, that's certainly interesting. Shows there's not much new under the sun. Ken Howell did the exact same thing with his early conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington. The rifling grooves would accept a 45 Colt bullet, but there was not enough space in the cylinder for six chambers without the rims overlapping. So he too drilled the chambers at an angle of less than 1/2 degree so the rims would not overlap. He was even able to patent the idea.
 
Just for fun, how did Colt later get the .455 Webley (which has a larger rim diameter than the .45 Colt) into the SAA? Easy. They drilled the chambers at an angle in the cylinder; the rear of each chamber diverges from the front so the .455 rims will fit!
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I first read this in The Handgunner, Ltd., back when a free Englishman might own a pistol. The author described getting support from the toolroom at Rolls Royce to gauge the cylinder.

What he did not mention was whether an adjustment was required to firing pin location.

I guess Ken Howell's patent examiner was not aware of 19th century prior art.
 
Guys thank you so much I do believe I am going to give it a go. So I will be depending on all of your wealth of knowledge thank you guys again!
 
Next step:
Go to the handloading, reloading and casting area here on TFL and open a new thread.

In that discussion, tell us specifically what equipment you HAVE and give us an idea of where you wish to start. (I would suggest .45 Colt... or even better, .38 Special if you also shoot .38 Special)

We can look at the tools and accessories you have complied, point out some other needed tools and give you some ideas for starting up.

This will be extremely rewarding in the long run, just you wait! :cool:
 
I have never owned one of those SAA's or Bisleys in .455, but I have been told the firing pin strike is noticeably off center, though not by much and you have to be looking for it to really notice.

Jim
 
Hey, Blacksun; you don't have to be "smart" to reload safely and effectively-good common sense and a healthy respect in terms of safety for the endeavor is all you'll ever need. I'm pretty sure it's long out of print but I think it'd be well worth your while to do a search for a copy of Dean Grennell's classic book entitled "The ABC's of Reloading". It's the very best book on the basics of reloading I've ever read-helpful for the beginner and experienced alike.
 
I hear your fear but . . .

Blacksun:
I hear you fears about reloading. Let me assure you that reloading is easy and safe. If I can do it, believe me you can. Go slow. Read the instructions that came with the die sets. Carefully follow published "formulas" for amount of powder etc. If you are still afraid of your first rounds, do what I did. I put a gun vise on the tail gate of my pick up, clamped the gun down and pulled the trigger with a lanyard. Go for it. You'll be glad you did.

Live well, be safe
Prof young
 
Starting out reloading now is so easy. With all the help videos and websites full of info plus all the help and info available on the forums it's a breeze. I started a little over 25 years ago and the only sources available were the loading manuals, the guys at the gun shop, and people you knew that were willing to help. These were all great sources but not as readily available as things are now with the Internet. Luckily I had four really good mentors that helped me tremendously.
 
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