Need a real answer to expand my knowledge

[Blacksun]

I was asked today by a fellow shooter who was admiring my Old Model Ruger Vaqueros in .45LC.

He was not a fan of the recoil but a huge fan of the pistol in general. He was shooting a Ruger model in 357 Mag. He stated he has been wanting to get a .45LC and said he had been told there were "alternative lighter rounds" that could be used in the Old Model Vaqueros. Of course I'm aware of the half loads etc but that's not what he was getting at. He also said you could fire "rimmed .45ACP" personally I've never heard of the round.

Personally I feel little difference between the .357 Mag and the .45LC but that's just a lifetime of hours on the range I think. Anyway not the point.

Are there alternative rounds for the 45 LC ? I am an avid collector and try to keep up on everything but our conversation got me thinking I should ask. So please holler back at me.

 

[James K]

The only practical alternative to the .45 Colt is the .45 Schofield, which is once again available as loaded ammunition. The case is shorter than the .45 Colt (1.10" vs 1.29") but otherwise identical.

Your friend may have been thinking of the .45 Auto Rim, which can be used in the Model 1917 revolvers and other double action revolvers instead of the .45 ACP with clips. But the .45 AR cannot be used in the Ruger single actions chambered for .45 Colt, or in the Ruger SA cylinders made for .45 ACP as the headspacing is different.

As a practical matter, your Vaquero can be loaded and fired only with .45 [Long] Colt or .45 Schofield. The .45 ACP cylinder with convertible Rugers can be used only with that cartridge.

Jim

 

[Wyosmith]

The Schofield rounds are hard to come by and quite expensive.

A far better way to go is to buy a Lee hand Press and a set of dies. Use only 6 grains of Unique with a 230 grain cast bullet. The recoil is not much more then a 38 Special. He's need only a ram-prime or auto prime, the hand press, a set of dies with shell holder and a powder scoop.

Works like a charm.

 

[Blacksun]

Jim,
Thank you this was the type of direct to the point information I was after. Thank you for your reply.

 

[Blacksun]

Wyo,

Thank you I actually don't reload at this time ( yes I know a sin) to be honest it scares me a little not that I'm not intelligent end to learn it. It's just something I am intimidated by. I'm a man I'm not afraid to admit my short comings. I don't know anyone who does it except one guy and he is constantly pushing limits like .38 triple +P or .45 that always crack casings. Sooo not someone I am willing to learn from. I even went and bought tons and tons of top of the line equipment it's all set up but without knowing what I'm doing I've Never even tried. Thank you for responding.

 

[Scorch]

There is a cartridge called .45 Cowboy. It is essentially a rimmed .45ACP, but is different from the .45 Auto Rim because it has a rim the same thickness as a .45 Colt.

 

[gyvel]

Thank you I actually don't reload at this time ( yes I know a sin) to be honest it scares me a little

I think I can sense your fears in that there is always a bit of apprehension of the unknown.

However, reloading is as simple as following directions. You get a book on "How To" reload, then merely follow the steps, much like you would follow directions when baking a cake.

Get a press, get the dies you need, buy powder, primers, and bullets (or cast your own out of lead), then follow the directions and all safety precautions in your manual step by step.

When you have reloaded your first cartridge, you'll say to yourself: "You mean that's all there is to it?"

Reloading is 50% common sense and 50% diligence. You follow certain rules and you will see just how easy and rewarding it is.

 

[James K]

I didn't know about the .45 Cowboy; I thought ".45 cowboy" loads were just light loads in the regular .45 Colt. I do know that the old .45 Schofield (aka .45 Government) is being loaded but is quite expensive. It is shorter than the .45 Colt but longer than the .45 ACP.

Jim

 

[Deaf Smith]

One could always handload! And turn the .45 LC to a pussycat.

Deaf

 

[Sevens]

Blacksun, let me tell ya...
We have a whole area of this site dedicated purely to discussions of handloading. And helping new folks get rolling is a large part of that discussion.

I have been handloading now for more than 25yrs. In a simple paragraph, I often equate it to changing your own oil in a car:

--can you manage that process?

--do you understand that if you screwed up an oil change (forgot oil -- or forgot to put in the drain plug), you could certainly destroy the engine, leave yourself stranded away from home?

Handloading may be a bit more complicated than changing your car's oil... but not much. And we are a tight-knit group; we always look out for each other.

True story: handloading very quickly changed my entire gun owning & shooting world, and it opens up a whole new understanding of exactly what happens when the hammer falls.

Bottom line... definitely consider it, and come here to ask for help and opinions. Your only regret will be "I should have done this sooner!"

 

[CajunBass]

I too was intimidated by reloading when I first got started many years ago. Reading magazine articles (the internet of the day) seemed to make it pretty complicated, with pictures of equipment that looked like something out of NASA.

Then I read an article about using a Lee-Loader that made it seem so simple. Turned out it was.

I started with a "wack-a-mole" Lee-Loader and nothing more. I did add a couple of small inexpensive tools to make things easier, as I went along, but I put up thousands of rounds with that little kit, and a plastic hammer. I scrounged brass where ever I could find it. Back then it was not unusual to find a box of empty brass, especially 38 left on the bench. (They still make the simple "Lee-Loader" kits. I should get another one for "old times sake.")

Today, I use the modern version of the same thing. A Lee Hand Press. I have graduated to a powder measure and scales but it's not a big jump from that little Lee-Loader of all those years ago. I don't try to hot load anything. I'm not pushing any envelopes. My brass lasts, well....virtually forever.

Reloading like anything else, can be as complicated or as simple as you want it to be. If you're careful enough to drive a car and not hit things, or build a fire in a BBQ grill and not set the house on fire, you can reload.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

As crappy as I shoot some days, it's almost as if I'm shooting just so I can reload. I've been reloading for over 30 years and it's quite addicting, but be prepared to shoot more so you can reload more.

 

[g.willikers]

There's many sources for the reduced loads in .45 Colt for Cowboy Action.
One version is a 255 grain bullet at 600 f/s, but there are plenty of others available online.
There's even black powder loads.
Just do a web search for Cowboy Action ammo, or the like.
They all seem to use the standard .45 Colt cases.
Yeah, reloading is the way to go, especially for custom or unusual ammo.
Been doing it for about fifty years and haven't even scared myself yet.
Just follow the well known recipes and procedures like we all do.

I, too, have one of those smack 'em good Lee loaders.
Never used it, just have it for general amusement.
But that's about what the old timers often used reloading around the campfire or bunk house.
There's descriptions of their use in the Hopalong Cassidy novels.

 

[bedbugbilly]

+1 to what Scorch mentions. . . .

I don't recall who was putting the "Cowboy" casing out but I do know that some used them for CAS, etc. and as stated, it's just a "short" 45 Colt casing about the length of the 45 ACP casing.

As far as 45 Schofield goes . . . I have no idea of what is available on the LGS shelf as I cast and reload. Starling makes the Schofield casings though and they aren't that hard to come by. I have several hundred of them - I got them just to play with due to the history of them. If a person reloads, just be aware that the Schofield casing takes a different shell holder than the 45 Colt casing due to the slight difference in the rim diameter. And . . . in some revolvers, depending on the cylinder chamber borings, if chambered in 45 Colt you can't chamber 6 Schofield loadings - the rims will interfere with each other or they might hit the cylinder ratchet.

I use either a 200 gr or 250 gr cast bullet for my 45 Colt loadings. In my 7 1/2" Uberti Cattleman, both of those bullet weights seem to work well over either 8 gr of unique or 6 gr of Red Dot. Like most handgun loads for revolvers, you can certainly use milder charges if recoil is an issue for you. Both of the above loadings I find very manageable as far as recoil. But . . . with milder loads, etc. you will have to adjust your sight picture as POI and POA will change. But that's the fun of shooting SAA - you "learn" whee you loads hit in comparison to where you aim and use a little "Kentucky Windage" as far as elevation goes. That's why folks who are used to shooting nice DA revolvers with adjustable sights have such a time when they try a SAA for the first time.

45 Colt/Schoefield are cartridges that everyone ought to shoot at least once to say they have . . . both great historical cartridges and even more fun when loaded with black powder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

A word about the 45 Schofield.

Jim K is slightly incorrect when he says that other than length, the 45 Schofield is identical to the 45 Colt. The 45 Schofield has a larger diameter rim that the 45 Colt. SAAMI spec rim diameter for the 45 Colt is .512, SAAMI spec rim diameter for the 45 Schofield is .520. This goes way back to when the Schofield revolver was first developed by Smith and Wesson in 1875. The rim of the Schofield round needed to be larger in diameter than the teeny rims on the old 45 Colt rounds so the extractor would have something to grab. Eventually 45 Colt rims got larger in diameter, but never as big as the Schofield rim.

The relevance to the current discussion is that although 45 Schofields will chamber in a Colt or colt replica with no problem, the larger rim sometimes presents a bit of a problem with a Ruger. This is because of the geometry of the ratchet teeth on the Ruger cylinder. The teeth on a Ruger are basically cylinderical in shape, leaving less clearance around the rims than the 'scooped' cutouts on a Colt or clone. This photo shows the problem graphically, a Ruger 'original model' large frame Vaquero cylinder on the left, a 2nd Gen Colt cylinder on the right. The Ruger cylinder actually would not accept the Schofield round in one chamber, the rim interfered with the ratchet teeth. This was easily remedied with a few careful strokes of a file, but I have two stainless Vaqueros that were stubborn about accepting 45 Schofield rounds, only ever modified one.

Regarding the price of 45 Schofield ammo, a quick check at Midway USA showed that loaded 45 Colt ammo runs from about $37 per box to about $60 per box. 45 Schofield is running from $40 per box to $60 per box. Neither of these cartridges is cheap to shoot unless you handload.

There is a cartridge called .45 Cowboy. It is essentially a rimmed .45ACP, but is different from the .45 Auto Rim because it has a rim the same thickness as a .45 Colt.

I didn't know about the .45 Cowboy; I thought ".45 cowboy" loads were just light loads in the regular .45 Colt. I do know that the old .45 Schofield (aka .45 Government) is being loaded but is quite expensive. It is shorter than the .45 Colt but longer than the .45 ACP.

The name of the cartridge is 45 Cowboy Special. Not to be confused with 45 Colt 'Cowboy Loads'. The 45 CS (cowboy special) was developed about 10 years ago. The idea was to make a more efficient case for lightly loaded 45s used in Cowboy competition. Many CAS shooters buy revolvers chambered for 45 Colt because of the romance of the old cartridge, but wind up loading it down ridiculously low so that it recoils about the same as a lightly loaded 38 Special. The huge, cavernous case of the 45 Colt does not do well when loaded too lightly, because of the large volume of air left in the case with light loads. When loaded down to Mousefart levels the powder can burn inefficiently resulting in inconsistent loads. I have cleared stuck bullets out of guns where the shooter simply did not put in enough powder to get the bullet out of the barrel.

The 45 CS is the same length as the 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim cartridges, but it has the same rim configuration as the 45 Colt. It will chamber in any revolver chambered for 45 Colt. Since the 45 CS has the same interior volume as the 45 ACP, 45 ACP loading data can be used with it. More to the point, very light loads that could be a problem in the 45 Colt case are not a problem in the 45 CS because there is so much less empty air space in the 45 CS when loaded lightly.

45 CS brass was produced by Starline but could only be purchased from the inventor of the round. A few years ago he left the business and nobody was making the brass anymore. Just recently, within the past month, a new outfit has again started marketing the 45 CS brass, and loaded ammo is available on the market for the first time.

In this photo, the cartridges left to right are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special, 45 Auto Rim, and 45 ACP. Note that the 45 AR has a rim .090 thick, too thick for any revolver that does not have enough headspace. The .090 rim is to make up for the extra thickness of half moon clips commonly used with Colt or S&W 1917 revolvers.

 

[James K]

Thanks for the info, Driftwood. I now recall reading about the .45 CS, but I don't play those cowboy games and I don't think I ever saw one.

Your info on the .45 Schofield rims is spot on. Frankford started out with the same rim size as the .45 Colt, but kept increasing it for the reason you give. Of course they couldn't increase it too much, as then the rounds wouldn't fit in the Colt.

The small rim of the .45 Colt was due to Colt needing to meet the Army's requirement for a .45 caliber, while keeping the same basic tooling used in the 1851 and 1860 revolvers. That factor limited the size of the cylinder. So the only thing they could do was to decrease rim size (no one thought of case support on the mouth - that would have to wait for another generation). Of course rim size didn't matter much in a revolver with an ejector rod.

Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Another interesting tidbit about the .45 Cowboy Special; it holds the SASS minimum of black powder for use in the BP category.

You can get a lifter for your .45 Colt repro Henry, 1866, or 1873 with a cartridge stop so it will feed .45 CS.
There are modifications that can be made to a Marlin to handle it, too.

 

[idek]

I too was intimidated by the prospect of reloading, and I didn't know anyone who could show/teach me. But by reading and watching youtube videos (from the companies that make the equipment), I was able to get started.

Among the things I learned is that revolver cartridges using cast lead is as easy as it gets for reloading. Don't have to lube the bullets/cases, don't have to be as picky about overall cartridge length, don't really have to trim the cases. With light cast lead loads, the cases last a long time (I've heard 20 shots or so as a ballpark figure).

I have and use the Lee hand press kit, Ram-prime, and Lee dippers that Wyosmith mentioned. My first dies were a Lee 4-die set for .38/.357. For cleaning the brass, I just use a Lee primer pocket cleaner and wash in mild detergent (no tumbler yet). Total start-up cost was about $80.

I later added a caliper and powder scale, but I don't feel either is essential if one only wants to load mild lead loads. I'd like a more advanced setup some day, but at the moment I don't have the space or workbench for a bigger press.

Based on the cost of lead bullets, primers, powder, and brass (assuming brass is used many times), I figure my budget loads cost about 13 or 14 cents per shot. If I cast my own bullets, I could probably knock another few cents off.

I admit I covered my face and arms up with winter clothing (in addition to shooting glasses) the fist time I pulled the trigger on one of my handloads (a .38 special case with a 158 gr. lead round nose over 3.1 gr. of HP-38, I think). But the gun just recoiled a little, I heard a bang, and my target had a new hole. I tried a few more and they all worked. I still don't load for rifles or shotguns, and I load almost entirely for the sake of saving money (not for maximizing accuracy/performance) but the majority of my .38/.357 shooting is now done with my hand loads.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The small rim of the .45 Colt was due to Colt needing to meet the Army's requirement for a .45 caliber, while keeping the same basic tooling used in the 1851 and 1860 revolvers. That factor limited the size of the cylinder. So the only thing they could do was to decrease rim size (no one thought of case support on the mouth - that would have to wait for another generation). Of course rim size didn't matter much in a revolver with an ejector rod.

Howdy James K

I never heard that particular take on the reason for the small rim on the 45 Colt, using the same basic tooling as the 1851 and 1861 C&B guns. Mind telling me where you heard that?

Here is a photo of a Pietta replica of the 1860 Army Colt and a 2nd Gen Colt SAA. The cylinders are significantly different in diameter. The cylinder on the C&B gun is 1.590 in diameter at the large diameter, the SAA cylinder is 1.650 in diameter. In other words, the SAA cylinder is .060 larger in diameter. The frames are also correspondingly sized. Granted, the 1860 Pietta is a replica, but I doubt the cylinder diameter differs much from the originals. So I am a little bit perplexed about your statement that the 1873 Colt was using the same tooling to make guns as the 1851 and 1860 guns. I can't imagine that by 1873 Colt had not invested in new tooling for their brand new revolver? They had some pretty hefty purchases by the US Army.

Anyhoo, no question the early 45 Colt rims were tiny.

In this photo, the two copper cased rounds in the center are original Benet primed 45s, 45 Colt on the left, 45 Schofield on the right. They are flanked by modern versions of the same rounds. Rim diameter of the 45 Colt round is a teeny .502. Just enough to keep it from slipping forward into the 45 Colt chamber. Rim diameter of the Schofield round is .518, just .002 shy of the current standard. At .518 that is plenty for the extractor of my antique Schofield to grab.

I just always assumed the early 45 Colt rims were tiny because they didn't have to be any larger, because as you said, rim size does not matter with an ejector rod.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I later added a caliper and powder scale, but I don't feel either is essential if one only wants to load mild lead loads. I'd like a more advanced setup some day, but at the moment I don't have the space or workbench for a bigger press.

I too am a self taught reloader. However I consider a powder scale is very essential for the novice reloader. How else are you going to know your powder charge is correct? I do not trust Lee dippers for measuring out tiny amounts of Smokeless powders with any amount of accuracy. They are fine for large amounts of Black Powder, where a grain or two does not matter very much, but a grain or two of many Smokeless powders can be the difference between a safe load and disaster.