Need a good 470 Nitro for Africa

M

MAD DOG

New member
I am evidently going to Africa to hunt this year.
This is the trip of a lifetime, and my dream come true.
I have all of the other necessities, but still lack a .470 or .500 Nitro double rifle for Buf. It is entirely possible that I may not get to hunt Buf, but I do not want to fly halfway around the world and find myself even slightly unprepared for any and all eventualities.
I have seen the Krieghoffs, they are gorgeous but they go for about $10-12K. OUCH!
I would rather get one less expensive, a used Krieghoff, or another brand if possible.
If forced to, I will bite the bullet and go with the high priced Krieghoff, as I know that it is superb.
I am going to start scouring Gunlist for a start.
Anybody have a nice double that they want to part with?
Any other suggestions?
Any other worthy brands?
 
Mad Dog,
My Dad is preparing for his first hunt to Africa now. He is planning on taking Buffalo, and is considering the same question as you. Have you considered a bolt gun of sufficent caliber? There are a couple of brute strong .416 Rigby's on the market; Ruger and CZ/BRNOcome to mind as regular production pieces. Also, the custom/semi-custom route should still be under the $$$'s of an entry level good double.

I haven't been to Africa[yet], but I have fired quite a few big double rifles, and I believe that I would rather have a well set up Mauser action, chambered in .416 Rigby, than a double anyday. I'm just more comfortable with my shooting, with a bolt gun, than a double. The .416 Rigby is certainly up to the task of anchoring Buffalo, as quite a few other 'magazine rifle' calibers. The CZ/BRNO large Mauser seems to me to be quite a value and starting place for a nice customized 'working rifle'.

With quite a few dollars left for practice ammo!



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Stay Sharp!

Will Fennell/CAMILLUS CUTLERY
 
Mad Dog - been there, done that. I think the 416's are the way to go. The .458 is a bit anemic, but doable inside of 150 yards - with the RIGHT handloads. The 450 grain Barnes X would be my bullet.

That being said, think hard about a Ruger # 1 in .470. SSK or Magnaport (forget which)can convert one of the .458 Tropicals for you if your heart is set on a .470.

Contact me off line if you are interested in a .505 Gibbs. :)

Giz

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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
 
A bolt gun would be alright, if it was in a caliber that I had a warm and fuzzy feeling for when it comes to LARGE dangerous game.
The .460 G&A that Jeff Cooper has is a proven Buf stomper, so that would be a starting point. The .416 Rigby is a great round, and lacks the belted case that I dislike in the .460 G&A.
I have no love of Ruger's bolt actions, but the Brno would be another option.
I can also do a second Dakota 76 action with a suitable caliber.
I am finishing up one in .358 Norma Magnum now, and a matching pair might be just the ticket.
The reason I want a double is one of tradition more than anything else.

I read too much for my own good, and the tales of Stigand, Von Blixen-Finneke, and Ruark have had their impact on me.

Any other caliber suggestions if I go with a bolt gun? I would rather stay away from belted cases for this weapon.
 
Mad Dog,

I agree with Chales Askins that .40 caliber and 400 grains is the "floor" for buff. Personally, the big cats worry me a lot more.

A close friend is finishing a .505 on the big Mauser action marketed by New England Custom. (have to check the exacts on both as I don't have the spelling in front of me) BTW - he has had horrendous problems with the importer. Don't buy one of these things.

The cartridge is pretty neat. No one would dispute the effectiveness of the .505. Col. Jeff considered it long and hard (his words) before going with Jack Lotts .460 G&A.

If you get the reamers for the .460, let me know. I would be very interested in picking one up.

The other cartridge I like is the .450 Dakota. Not sure of magazine capacity on the Dakota action, but a good cartridge.

Giz

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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
 
CZ magnum calibers go for less than $600 here in Colorado, and I'm sure you can saty under the $1000 mark for a hard hitting bolt gun.

the .470 is a "primadonna" cartridge, ie any rifle chambered in it is going to carry a premium price tag.That said, Chapius, Willam Douglas and Krieghoff all make various "grades" of rifles and you may get under the 8-9K mark buying new.

Boddington points out that MANY "african" doubles were army/navy guns (bought through a british military PX) having "generic" markings but actually being quality arms. Shop for one of these, you'll pay a lot less. if you are leaving for africa soon, but the rifle you have the most time to practice with.

Seen at local gun show: Ruger #1 in 416 remington (concussion from the breech should knock you senseless enough to be partially anesthetized should you miss and the buff charge.)

Possible solution (if you really want a double) buy a pedersoli 45/70 double from cabela's for $2000 and get some super hard cast bullets (this MAY be a legal set up for buff in some countries)

Dr.Rob
 
Dr. Rob,
The #1H in .416 is a great shooter and not too bad on the recoil or muzzle blast. For that department you should try my #1H in .460 Weatherby, it gives you a pretty good thump because it is a light rifle and pushing out a 500 gr. slug at 2,600 fps creates alot of recoil. It started out as a .458 Win Mag and I just had it rechamberd and the locking block recontured. Pretty cheap way to get into a big boomer/fun gun I have about $400 into it.

NJW
 
NJW,

the ruger #1 i fired in .300 winchester purred like a pussy-cat recoil-wise.. it was teh concussion from the breech face that was clearing my sinuses.. 6 shots and I had a headache for hours.. imagine that the average bolt rifle's breech face is four inches further away from your face.... lol that .416remmington would knock me senseless.

Dr.Rob
 
The .450 Dakota is a necked up .416 Rigby. The case capacity is the same as the .460 Weatherby, but no belt.

If they had necked up the .404 Jefferies case there would be on in my house now.

The only drawback is the size of the case. I think magazine capacity is three rounds.

Giz

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"I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff" - Mark Manning
 
I sure can't offer any info, but just wanted to point out that Boddington has an interesting article in the JAN 2000 Guns and Ammo: Double or Magazine for Dangerous Game?
 
Well, my interest is piqued.
Have any specs on this Dakota .450?
What sort of velocity and pressures can it withstand?
Also, is there a .45 or larger round based on the .404 Jeffries? That wuld be a might shorter, and easier to get into a normal sized action.
I think that a Canadian company was doing some calibers based on that, called the Imperials?
Are they still around?
 
Kevin, based on all my reading it seems that the 416 Rigby seems to be the recommended load for the non-professional hunter for large dangerous game. I think we both share a love of the Ruger #1 in 45-70. I know that SSk is doing conversions on these into Nitro calibers that weigh about half of the old doubles and are much faster handling. I am planning on having Ashley do an express sight on my 45-70, and it should take a 500 gr. solid at close to 2000 fps. A little light for buff, but it should be interesting. Good Luck....By the way you taking a Tusk, or making something exotic.
 
As much as I like a great single shot rifle, I do not feel that they are appropriate for dangerous game like Buf.

I feel that the second shot may be every bit as important as the first in some cases, and I want it quickly available.

I have started beating the bushes for a nice Remington P17 action, or another suitable controlled feed bolt action in a suitable length for the .416 Rigby.
 
We do a lot of African Guns up here since the larger calibers are equally suited to Alaska Hunting.

One of our Professional Hunter customers is using our 45-70 Co-Pilot for Buffalo in Africa right now with amazing results. We hhave even upped the power by making the 50 Alaskan and 457 Magnum.

In terms of stock Rifles, we build and sell a great number of 416s, either Remington or Rigby. They seem to do the trick.

And we stock such big boys as Heym Safari Rifles and A-Squares along with our custom rifles which we can build to order.

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The Guys @Wild West
 
O.K. Wild West Guys,

What actions are you using for the .416 Rigby, and how are you setting them up?

I just checked into a Dakota Long Magnum action with dropped magazine box, and the wholesale cost on it is about $2000.00
AAACCKKK! TTHHHPPPTTTT!
 
After much soul searching, researching, and wallet emptying (that didn't take long), I have arived at a final decision to the "Big African Gun Dilemma".
I will obtain a Winchester 70 Classic Safari Express in .416 Rem, and modify it appropriately.
McMillan stock, express sights, leopard light and some decent glass.
Sort of a heavyweight LURCR (call it a HURC?) in .416, but without some of the "extras" like the NV gear and Aimpoint.
Well, OK, maybe the Aimpoint...
This should do nicely.

I realize that the .416 Rem is a belted case which I initially objected to, but after speaking with some trusted associates that have hunted DG in Africa with it I am confident that it will serve as well as can be expected, and I can do it at a cost that I can more nearly afford without the wife and kids leaving for greener pastures...
 
Mad Dog:

I have been following your post. Like you, I went through the same dilemma. My trip was also a dream of a lifetime. Likewise, the rifle was a tough decision. I initially decided to go with a double. After about a year worth of research, I decided on arguably the best double gun for the money a .470 made by Butch Searcy. I intended to have the double stocked with Exhibition Grade English walnut from Rimrock, but just couldn’t part with the money. In retrospect, I wish I had made the plunge since the rifle would have doubled in value. Instead, I went with a bolt gun, a .416 Remington with a McMillan stock and Zeiss 1.5-6 scope in Warne QD mounts with express sights. Obviously I approve of your choice.

During the year of pondering, I corresponded with two outfitters regarding equipment. One in Tanzania and the other in Zimbabwe. Both outfitters advised against single shot rifles. In fact, one of them told me they wouldn’t allow a hunter to use a single shot at all. I also asked about cartridges and both advised against proprietary cartridges, wildcats and hand loads, including the Dakota cartridges. Both also did not approve of the 45-70.

Looks like you made the right decision (but man I would love to have a double) and good luck on your hunt. Thump a big one, right in the boiler room, twice…you ain’t gonna believe the rush.
 
Kevin,

I'll send you private mail tomarrow but here is my 2 cents after working on this for a couple of years with a bunch of guns and big bore calibers.

First a 416, any of them is not a 470. The 416, any of them is more versatile than a 470. But it is not a definative on a buff as a 458 or a 470.

My suggestion is forget the 416 Win if you want a big bore and find last year's version of a 458 with a 22" barrel and rechamber to a Lott or a Ackley. 416 is really a light heavy not heavy. Everyone I have talked to says if you can shoot a big bore, bring a big bore. Both the Lott and Ackley have factory ammo available (A Square) and you can shoot 458WIN if need be. Bullets are cheap and available in many flavors. Then restock and fix the express sights which is also easy. Add a drop box if you must have 5 and you are in business and loosing nothing to a 8/10K dbl, imo. Plus you can add a scope at any time with a set of Talley QR mounts.

Good luck, tough decision. I got couple extra big bore rifles and a couple of mediums from this search before I decided what I really wanted :)

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R.D. Burns
Burnscustom.com
 
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