Nebraska has gone nuts. Hats off for the next step to POLICE STATE
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silicon wolverine
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Sorry state haters its been that way here in SD for years. The cops can stop you and give you a brethalyzer for acting "drunk" but you actually have to fail befoer they can charge you. Ive been bethalyzed several times just for acting stupid in public. I blew for the cops and when it came up negative they just told me not to act so stupid sometimes and let me go. Acting drunk is probable casue in this state but they have to prove you ARE drunk to charge you. And yet teen drinking is at an all time high.....
SW
SW
Rich Lucibella
Staff
"Oh, I'm so torn about this"
"What, you want kids driving around drunk?"
Nico hit it on the head:
What if the shoe was on the other foot. What if Police were allowed to arrest CCW holders because they "appear" to be acting erratically, raise their voice, complain about the service in a public place, inadvertently allow their firearm to "print" etc. Sarah would be in favor of any of these measures. Welcome to the Brady School of Social Thought. Many here differ from her only in terms of the target group.
Rich
"What, you want kids driving around drunk?"
Nico hit it on the head:
Many of us are no different than the Brady Bunch. So long as some vague new law is directed against a group that we don't trust, we all wave the flag of "Citizen Safety".
What if the shoe was on the other foot. What if Police were allowed to arrest CCW holders because they "appear" to be acting erratically, raise their voice, complain about the service in a public place, inadvertently allow their firearm to "print" etc. Sarah would be in favor of any of these measures. Welcome to the Brady School of Social Thought. Many here differ from her only in terms of the target group.
Rich
The cops spot somebody driving erratically.... they don't know their age until they pull them, over. This is determined upon initial contact. Same for local ordinances prohibiting 'open containers' etc. In most states, if the cops happen onto someone who smells like a drunk, drives like a drunk, & staggers like a drunk-and that intoxication is prohibited by law (DWI, MIP etc.)-then they are going to offer you a PBT, BA or some other test to determine if you are in fact intoxicated. If you are a minor, it will be used to determine if you have consumed alcohol.
In some states a positive PBT or BA is prima facie evidence of possession by a minor.
I'm sure this will be challeneged to the state supreme court level as cases develop- but the officer's observations of a person's apparent intoxication, further confirmed by roadside field sobriety tests, have formed the basis of PC for an arrest for as long as I can remember.
I'm having a little trouble here seeing this as the end of "freedom as we know it." If possession/consumption by a minor is prohibited in a given jurisdiction, then maybe the best plan is for minors to avoid possessing/consuming there.* If Little Johnny gets pickled, Joe Cop sees him and ignores it, and then Johnny mows down a covey of little old ladies headed up the sidewalk- now, nobody's gonna like that.
*Gee, I never did that "MIP thing" myself....
but when I did do it, I knew somebody was likely to throw my drunk little ass in jail if I got caught. Live and learn- if you're lucky.
In some states a positive PBT or BA is prima facie evidence of possession by a minor.
I'm sure this will be challeneged to the state supreme court level as cases develop- but the officer's observations of a person's apparent intoxication, further confirmed by roadside field sobriety tests, have formed the basis of PC for an arrest for as long as I can remember.
I'm having a little trouble here seeing this as the end of "freedom as we know it." If possession/consumption by a minor is prohibited in a given jurisdiction, then maybe the best plan is for minors to avoid possessing/consuming there.* If Little Johnny gets pickled, Joe Cop sees him and ignores it, and then Johnny mows down a covey of little old ladies headed up the sidewalk- now, nobody's gonna like that.
*Gee, I never did that "MIP thing" myself....
but when I did do it, I knew somebody was likely to throw my drunk little ass in jail if I got caught. Live and learn- if you're lucky.Rich Lucibella
Staff
And I'm having a little trouble here seeing why you would support an additional law after already admitting: "the officer's observations of a person's apparent intoxication, further confirmed by roadside field sobriety tests, have formed the basis of PC for an arrest for as long as I can remember."
See, this law is not about a "PC Stop" followed by a sobriety test. This is prosecution based on nothing more than an officer's observation of a behavior the might indicate prior illegal action. If you think that's reasonable, that's your choice. I don't, given the ability of LEO's to demand breath and blood samples. After all, wouldn't you want to know if you had made a judgment error? It does happen once in a blue moon; so does the occasional vindictive arrest, yes?
Is our goal to detect and arrest intoxicated teens or to just arrest lots more citizens?
Rich
Rich, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say I supported it. As you quoted me, I said I'm having a little trouble here seeing this as the end of "freedom as we know it." Stupid, inane and downright BAD laws get passed all the time. This one don't excite me much in the grand scheme of 'bad laws'. That's it.
A far as it being "an additional law"? All 50 states have laws against drunk driving- so do practically all municipalities. These "additional" laws get passed because local government wants a piece of the money that would otherwise go to state courts. I didn't make it that way; it is what it is. Frankly it would suit me fine if all we ever did was to enforce state laws.
Neither you nor I "know" what this law is about. We have a reference to an AP story about a local ordinance passed in Cass County, NE. We don't have the text of the ordinance. We don't have an ordinance number. I found the county's website, and I couldn't locate a link to their code of ordinances so I can't help either of us out there. They're at http://www.cassne.org/ if anybody else wants to look.
I personally think it prudent to see the text of the ordinance before forming an opinion on it- even if MSN did attempt to sensationalize it by headlining it "County to run teens in for just looking drunk" in big, bold red type. I do know that I'm not interested in arguing about it.
Any competent officer would conduct a SFST and/or PBT to confirm their observations, and I expect that is what will happen here. To do otherwise would be to invite getting a fool made of yourself in court.
Vindictive arrest? Homey don't play that. Homey does occasionally arrest people who are blatantly breaking the law in such a fashion as to make it impossible to find a better solution to a problem.
Arresting people is not nearly as much fun as Cops and a few other idiotic TV shows make it out to be. (My personal favorite is Reno 911) I can't speak for anyone else but "my" goal is not to just "arrest lots more citizens". I'm not quite sure who you're referring to with the term "our goal", but it sure ain't me.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
invssgt-
On the issue of your take on this particular law:
Point, Set and Match go to you.
Apologies from S. FL. Honestly.
Quid Pro Quo: If you, in future, comment on an "AP Story" regarding the trial of some bit of vermin, or an "AP Story" regarding the daily heroism of some of our Brothers in Blue, shall I quiz you as to whether you read the court transcript or witness reports. I think AP reports are fair game on this forum...especially when a bill's author is quoted as saying:
Rich
On the issue of your take on this particular law:
Point, Set and Match go to you.
Apologies from S. FL. Honestly.
Quid Pro Quo: If you, in future, comment on an "AP Story" regarding the trial of some bit of vermin, or an "AP Story" regarding the daily heroism of some of our Brothers in Blue, shall I quiz you as to whether you read the court transcript or witness reports. I think AP reports are fair game on this forum...especially when a bill's author is quoted as saying:
Rich
And I will reply with a sincere "Thank You" from Missouri.
AP reports are indeed fair game. It would sure be nice if we could always find an independent and accurate reference to what the hell they're talking about.
The news agencies, I suppose, do the best they can at getting a story out under deadline, and filling the space that they need to fill- the "DVC" of journalism, if you will. Under these parameters it is to be expected that some stories will get too much time and space devoted to them, and others will get too little. The same thing happens with our sight picture- hurry too much, and accuracy suffers.
Cox does come off sounding like something of a wanker, doesn't he?
Quiz me all you want, Rich- but I just might "take the 5th"
AP reports are indeed fair game. It would sure be nice if we could always find an independent and accurate reference to what the hell they're talking about.
The news agencies, I suppose, do the best they can at getting a story out under deadline, and filling the space that they need to fill- the "DVC" of journalism, if you will. Under these parameters it is to be expected that some stories will get too much time and space devoted to them, and others will get too little. The same thing happens with our sight picture- hurry too much, and accuracy suffers.
Cox does come off sounding like something of a wanker, doesn't he?
Quiz me all you want, Rich- but I just might "take the 5th"
the argument about how AP reports are not reliable aside, and hopefully being able to move past personal feelings on cops.(good or bad) Lets look at what the law would mean in real terms.
Scenario 1. John Johnson is walking down first street when he stumbles on a pothole, some concerned citizen sees this and phones the local PD to report a drunk hanging around the neighborhood. The LEO in the area gets the message from dispatch and heads over to investigate. LEO arrives on the scene to find a man walking funny due to a spained ankle from tripping over potholes, the man is already in a foul mood from the injury and gets in a worse mood when the LEO stops him. John is not hostile with the LEO but is still short with his answers, and the LEO is getting rapidly put out with the mans attitude. Unable to determine whether or not the man is drunk visually, LEO administers a SFST and PBT to determine whether or not he can arrest the man. John is found to be sober, and after a brief lecture about showing the police proper respect, is sent on his way.
Scenario 2. John Johnson is walking down first street when he stumbles on a pothole, some concerned citizen sees this and phones the local PD to report a drunk hanging around the neighborhood. The LEO in the area gets the message from dispatch and heads over to investigate. LEO arrives on the scene to find a man walking funny due to a spained ankle from tripping over potholes, the man is already in a foul mood from the injury and gets in a worse mood when the LEO stops him. John is not hostile with the LEO but is still short with his answers, and the LEO is getting rapidly put out with the mans attitude. Unable to determine whether or not the man is drunk visually, the LEO decides to take advantage of a new law and arrest the man due to appearance. The man who was already having a lousy day now has to spend the night in jail and/or pay a fine.
There is no end to the scenarios like this I could list. One has to keep in mind that cops are just people, not good or bad, and that even though most cops would not abuse this right away, over time things have a way of becoming standard practice even among the good.(like rubber stamping search warrants)
Scenario 1. John Johnson is walking down first street when he stumbles on a pothole, some concerned citizen sees this and phones the local PD to report a drunk hanging around the neighborhood. The LEO in the area gets the message from dispatch and heads over to investigate. LEO arrives on the scene to find a man walking funny due to a spained ankle from tripping over potholes, the man is already in a foul mood from the injury and gets in a worse mood when the LEO stops him. John is not hostile with the LEO but is still short with his answers, and the LEO is getting rapidly put out with the mans attitude. Unable to determine whether or not the man is drunk visually, LEO administers a SFST and PBT to determine whether or not he can arrest the man. John is found to be sober, and after a brief lecture about showing the police proper respect, is sent on his way.
Scenario 2. John Johnson is walking down first street when he stumbles on a pothole, some concerned citizen sees this and phones the local PD to report a drunk hanging around the neighborhood. The LEO in the area gets the message from dispatch and heads over to investigate. LEO arrives on the scene to find a man walking funny due to a spained ankle from tripping over potholes, the man is already in a foul mood from the injury and gets in a worse mood when the LEO stops him. John is not hostile with the LEO but is still short with his answers, and the LEO is getting rapidly put out with the mans attitude. Unable to determine whether or not the man is drunk visually, the LEO decides to take advantage of a new law and arrest the man due to appearance. The man who was already having a lousy day now has to spend the night in jail and/or pay a fine.
There is no end to the scenarios like this I could list. One has to keep in mind that cops are just people, not good or bad, and that even though most cops would not abuse this right away, over time things have a way of becoming standard practice even among the good.(like rubber stamping search warrants)
Scenario 3. John Johnson is walking down first street when he stumbles on a pothole, some concerned citizen sees this and phones the local PD to report a drunk hanging around the neighborhood. The LEO in the area gets the message from dispatch and heads over to investigate. LEO arrives on the scene to find a man walking funny due to a spained ankle from tripping over potholes, the man is already in a foul mood from the injury and gets in a worse mood when the LEO stops him. John is not hostile with the LEO but is still short with his answers, and the LEO is getting rapidly put out with the mans attitude. Unable to determine whether or not the man is drunk visually, the LEO decides to take advantage of a new law and arrest the man due to appearance.
The LEO's shift sergeant, me, overhears the radio traffic and drives by the call to 'see what my pups are up to'. Since our hero (#179) is about to arrest this fella (who is by now mouthing off pretty good) I decide that it behooves me to take a close look. After finally convincing Clyde Crashcup to shut the hell up and show me his ankle, I note the absence of alcohol on his breath, that his pupils are not funky, and the discoloration of the injured ankle compared to the uninjured one. I get Hero aside and ask him what the Billy Blue Hell he's trying to do- get us sued, fired or both? He mutters something about the guy being a wiseass, and I explain to him that same is still 6 or 8 notches above a dumbass, which is what he's proved himself to be today. 'Civil rights', 'Color of Law"- remember those boring technicalities from the academy? Now get your ass into the station and I'll be in to visit with you as soon as I finish handling the call that YOU just screwed up. Do not pass go, stop anybody or collect $200 until I get there. MOVE it.
(The Watch Commander might scold me for my harsh language, but that's OK. That's what shift sergeants are for.)
Clyde declines EMS treatment, and I offer to drive him home or wherever.
"Go screw yourself pig."
Back atcha, Clyde. Hobble on home, Einstein.
"172-Station"
"Seventy-Two?'
"10-8 with a GI (general information) report; I'll get the number when I get to the station. Mr. Crashcup, er Johnson, had turned his ankle. He declined medical attention, left under his own power and is not 10-55. I'll be enroute to the station for an Admin detail, and 177 will be acting in my absence. 79 will be out of service for awhile, so his adjoining districts will be covering his district for a bit. Pass the word."
"Roger that."
The man who was already having a lousy day is still having a lousy day. We can't fix everything.
The LEO's shift sergeant, me, overhears the radio traffic and drives by the call to 'see what my pups are up to'. Since our hero (#179) is about to arrest this fella (who is by now mouthing off pretty good) I decide that it behooves me to take a close look. After finally convincing Clyde Crashcup to shut the hell up and show me his ankle, I note the absence of alcohol on his breath, that his pupils are not funky, and the discoloration of the injured ankle compared to the uninjured one. I get Hero aside and ask him what the Billy Blue Hell he's trying to do- get us sued, fired or both? He mutters something about the guy being a wiseass, and I explain to him that same is still 6 or 8 notches above a dumbass, which is what he's proved himself to be today. 'Civil rights', 'Color of Law"- remember those boring technicalities from the academy? Now get your ass into the station and I'll be in to visit with you as soon as I finish handling the call that YOU just screwed up. Do not pass go, stop anybody or collect $200 until I get there. MOVE it.
(The Watch Commander might scold me for my harsh language, but that's OK. That's what shift sergeants are for.)
Clyde declines EMS treatment, and I offer to drive him home or wherever.
"Go screw yourself pig."
Back atcha, Clyde. Hobble on home, Einstein.
"172-Station"
"Seventy-Two?'
"10-8 with a GI (general information) report; I'll get the number when I get to the station. Mr. Crashcup, er Johnson, had turned his ankle. He declined medical attention, left under his own power and is not 10-55. I'll be enroute to the station for an Admin detail, and 177 will be acting in my absence. 79 will be out of service for awhile, so his adjoining districts will be covering his district for a bit. Pass the word."
"Roger that."
The man who was already having a lousy day is still having a lousy day. We can't fix everything.
Its nice that there are truly good and wise cops out there like yourself, but in smaller rural areas the LE gets downright abusive. The Sherrifs Dept. in McIntosh County, OK even go so far as to run around in full military fatigues carrying M16s and setting up road blocks at every major intersection on weekends. I'm sure this is the type of behavior that a good, honest cop like yourself would find hard to believe in, but it is a sad and scary fact. The fear of lawsuits doesn't seem to matter much when they are harrassing people who can't even afford a $20 seatbelt ticket. Besides that, that was the point of the story, because of the new law the cop was "justified" in making the arrest based on appearance.
I know I have a tendancy to sound like a cop basher when I talk about things like this, that is not my intention. I just don't trust all deptartments and agencies to behave in a proffessional manner simply because its the right thing to do. Cops are just people, as I've said before, and people are able to be tempted.
If there is some reason why you think this law is a good thing, please let me know. Since you are a cop with apparently high rank, and I am not a LEO in any form, I will take what you say into serious consideration. I promise you I am more open minded than my posts make me sound.
I know I have a tendancy to sound like a cop basher when I talk about things like this, that is not my intention. I just don't trust all deptartments and agencies to behave in a proffessional manner simply because its the right thing to do. Cops are just people, as I've said before, and people are able to be tempted.
If there is some reason why you think this law is a good thing, please let me know. Since you are a cop with apparently high rank, and I am not a LEO in any form, I will take what you say into serious consideration. I promise you I am more open minded than my posts make me sound.
Depends on the man, and what you mean by "lash out".
Nicotine- thanks. I'm not and never have been what you'd call "high ranking." I never accepted rank above that of Sgt., although for awhile I was supervising 3 junior Sgt's and their shifts, as well as my own- and doing firearms, investigations, and IA's for a 50-commission dept.- one of those cussed small rural depts. So I was sort of the GySgt Major by definition, but it was too contorted to define with a handle. I was happy just being 'Old Three Stripe' or 'Sgt. Ditto'. I had some good boys & girls working for me and with the rare exception, they all 'colored inside the lines'.
Small departments can have that "By God this is the way we do it HERE!" attitude. I had the good fortune to get my training and first 5 years OJT in a real busy KC suburb, surrounded by it on all sides; Metro Patrol was our next-door neighgbor. When I moved back to 'the sticks' went to smaller depts., I saw the phenomenon you describe. It's a fine line between common-sense law enforcement and the Good Old Boy system-which I utterly detest. I tried to instill in the troops the 'golden rule'- treat the people you interact with like you'd like for me to treat your brother, wife, etc. if I stopped them. This actually works about 90% of the time, but that 'other 10%' is why you have to keep your guard up, even when dealing with the nice folks. You cannot become complacent.
I am long on record as being against the militarization of civillian police. Your 'everday officer' running around in full military fatigues carrying M16s is ridiculous, and it sends just the message that folks (like myself and many here) do NOT want to see- Gestapo PD. I'm probably a little slower to whip out the tinfoil hat than some other folks, because I know that lots of these guys & gals are just regular cops in BDU's- It's the current fad, and LE is anything but immune to fads. Now I don't have any problem with locals having access to military small arms (although there are often better tools for the job) if they can qualify with them. But I have also seen real marksmanship training get sacrificed over the years, on the altar of 'tacticality'- so I have to wonder how good they really are with those snazzy guns.
The last 10 years have found me out of uniform, as the investigator for a state PA Office. (District Atty. in some states) I am still reviewing the work of those 'pups'- but from about 9 agencies now, as opposed to just one. At least I get straight day & weekends off now, which was one of the big perks for accepting the position.
Csspecs- as much as I am tempted to say "The answer is blowing in the wind...." I'll give you a straight answer instead. Not even once- and when he 'lashes out' it would be much smarter for him to do it via a citizen's complaint, and/or civil rights attorney. I feel safe in saying that we in LE do NOT like badge-heavy thugs dragging our good name in the dirt, and making the next call to that guy's house much uglier than it should have been. There are solutions to problems like this that do not involve meat cleavers, ambulances and medical examiners. The smart man uses them, and just might have a pile of money to spend in the long run.
Signing off this thread- I am home today and supposed to be getting things done around here...
Small departments can have that "By God this is the way we do it HERE!" attitude. I had the good fortune to get my training and first 5 years OJT in a real busy KC suburb, surrounded by it on all sides; Metro Patrol was our next-door neighgbor. When I moved back to 'the sticks' went to smaller depts., I saw the phenomenon you describe. It's a fine line between common-sense law enforcement and the Good Old Boy system-which I utterly detest. I tried to instill in the troops the 'golden rule'- treat the people you interact with like you'd like for me to treat your brother, wife, etc. if I stopped them. This actually works about 90% of the time, but that 'other 10%' is why you have to keep your guard up, even when dealing with the nice folks. You cannot become complacent.
I am long on record as being against the militarization of civillian police. Your 'everday officer' running around in full military fatigues carrying M16s is ridiculous, and it sends just the message that folks (like myself and many here) do NOT want to see- Gestapo PD. I'm probably a little slower to whip out the tinfoil hat than some other folks, because I know that lots of these guys & gals are just regular cops in BDU's- It's the current fad, and LE is anything but immune to fads. Now I don't have any problem with locals having access to military small arms (although there are often better tools for the job) if they can qualify with them. But I have also seen real marksmanship training get sacrificed over the years, on the altar of 'tacticality'- so I have to wonder how good they really are with those snazzy guns.
The last 10 years have found me out of uniform, as the investigator for a state PA Office. (District Atty. in some states) I am still reviewing the work of those 'pups'- but from about 9 agencies now, as opposed to just one. At least I get straight day & weekends off now, which was one of the big perks for accepting the position.
Csspecs- as much as I am tempted to say "The answer is blowing in the wind...."
I'll give you a straight answer instead. Not even once- and when he 'lashes out' it would be much smarter for him to do it via a citizen's complaint, and/or civil rights attorney. I feel safe in saying that we in LE do NOT like badge-heavy thugs dragging our good name in the dirt, and making the next call to that guy's house much uglier than it should have been. There are solutions to problems like this that do not involve meat cleavers, ambulances and medical examiners. The smart man uses them, and just might have a pile of money to spend in the long run.Signing off this thread- I am home today and supposed to be getting things done around here...