Navy Pepperbox at EMF

I agree with what the Cap says about.....

.....Increasing value because, essentially, of rarity. I know that in conversations with BPREVOLVER, he anticipates some upward creep of values of existing specimens of revolvers that have some history. We have already seen Lyman revolvers increase in value, as have the Belgian Colts.

My thought on this particular "revolver?" is that at three hundred bucks, few will be sold.

My humble opinion is that as a firearm it has precious few redeaming factors. I am out on a limb here because I have never handled one, but I stand by my post of 5:45 the other day.
 
+1 Doc - hope you know I was talking with tongue in cheek! :D I suppose, as articap points out, there is some "collector" aspect to it, but, at $300, if I had it to burn, I'd be purchasing a decent "modern" collector Colt like a Official Police, Army Special, etc. (they can still be found in that price range) and tucking that away as they will appreciate more in value - or use the money to buy a different C & B revolver that I had on my "wish list". I'm not knocking articap's outlook on it as that's not my intention - different folks collect different things that interest them and this is certainly an "oddity". It would certainly be interesting to know the thoughts of the fellow that came up with this one. My next "tongue in cheek" question would be to ask if they or someone were going to make "conversion cylinders" for it? :)

That said, the "true pepperbox" is a historical firearm that holds a niche in the evolution of the handgun. There have been some feeble attempts to make copies - I think it is just too bad that someone doesn't make a reproduction of one that is accurate. I don't know as if I'd have a true interest in owning one and shooting it - I would think the novelty would wear off after a while - but I think there is a market for one if it was a decent copy.

articap - if by chance you do get one of these - please let us know what you think about it - and if you shoot it - how it did. Who knows, if you get one, maybe years down the road you can tell us all . . . "see, I told you so". It wouldn't be the first time I've had to "eat crow"! :)

I'm glad this got posted as it is interesting and a "little out of the ordinary". Have a good 4th of July everyone! :)
 
No, for me this gun is just an interesting topic for discussion. I don't want to buy one for $300 without having collected on a winning lottery ticket first. ;)
In the photo, I did notice that the the hammer spur notch seems to be pretty deep. Maybe that allows for aiming by using the raised ribs that run along the outside of the pepperbox cylinder.
And the fact that the cylinder has rear nipples in line with the hammer which are struck like a conventional C&B revolver is a big improvement over a traditional pepperbox design where the nipples are located on the side of each chamber with the top mounted hammer blocking one's ability to aim.
Yes, the main sticking point with this gun seems to be the price.
If not $300, then what do folks think would be a fair price for this new 1851 pepperbox mongrel?
Would anyone here be willing to buy one for $225 or $250? :rolleyes:
Yes, the sales of this type of specialty gun is dependent on the price. Everyone would like to shoot one but who really wants to pay the high price?
 
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I viewed the purchase of that Ballister....

....much the same as I would view this thing. It was IMO an oddity. The only reason that I was interested in the pistol is that it was cheap. I paid the same for it as I was paying for brass frame 1851s at that time (mid 1970s). Cabela,s frequently puts their Pietta brass frame revolvers on sale for around 170.00. (I bought a G&G for 155.00 and free shipping.) I would not give more than that for this piece.

And if I was in the mood to spend 170.00 for this thing, I would add 50.00 to it and buy another 1860, or 1858.

I just don't want one.
 
Weird revolvers

EMF is a classic company that has introduced several "odd" revolver combinations. This is the weirdest of all. It appears to be on an unaltered 1851 Navy frame with the cylinder arbor acting as the screw that holds the cylinder on ther frame. The barrel pins on the front of the frame have not even been removed. This is just weird and has no historical value.

EMF is one of the companies that imported the 1851 3rd Model Dragoon with an 18" barrel. It came with a shoulder stock with steel hardware and a holster. The shoulder stocks alone now are selling for more than $600. These were made by Armi San Marco. RPRCA has three of these in its collection and is going to sell one.

Another special edition type revolver by EMF was an 1851 Navy in .44cal. with a 12", 7 1/2", and 5" barrels each serial numbered to the same frame. Each barrel was also fitted with it's own loading lever assembly. Extremely rare.


***Went to EMF and this pepper box is an 1851 Navy that comes with the extra pepper box cylinder. That puts it into a different catagory, another "weird" EMF creation. I may just have to get one of these.***
 
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BPRevolver

Yes.

I had one of the 12" barrel jobs. It was referred to as a "Ballister", a name which I have not been able to figure out. I think I remember reading that there was a designer named "Ballister" on Colt's staff but I was not able to connect that person with a long barrel version of the 1851. It was a brass frame revolver and I did not buy it as a set with the other two barrels.

It was not very well put together. The finish on the steel parts should have been more thoroughly polished before bluing. Fit was okay and the action worked fine. It had a defect in that the barrel was noticably bent. (A metal cooling issue, I think) I straightened the barrel until the bend was not perceptible. The pistol also had a wooden grip that was made of the most disgusting blond colored wood. No attempt to stain the wood was made.

I did not like the pistol and it went with the sale of my first accumulation of black powder firearms which occured at the urging of my first (and thankfully ex) wife. I should have kept the pistols and divorced the wife which eventually happened far too late.
 
EMF Pepperbox---Historical Precedents

Although not well known, there are historical precedents for EMF's "1851 Pepperbox." The prototype was based on an original found in Canada by Herb Houze, the Colt/Winchester authority (author of "Samuel Colt: Arms, Art, and Invention," etc.) He described it as a Colt M1860 Army frame, mated with a pepperbox barrel cluster of the Blunt & Syms type, about five inches long. Its present location is unknown, but other handguns of the same general pattern exist. One of them, a double-action percussion Bentley, with a revolver-style frame and a typical pepperbox barrel cluster, is shown on Plate 11 of W. C. Dowell's "The Webley Story," and there are undoubtedly others.

(Pic of the Bentley attached; you may have to scroll all the way down to see it.)
 

Attachments

I have been working with Walt and Boyd at EMF regarding these Pepperbox revolvers. We have plans that go far beyond the prototype that ya'll have seen pictured on their website.

The history goes like this: Based on the above mentioned marriage of a Pepperbox cylinder and a Colt frame, Boud wanted to market a new revolver. The cylinders are being manufactured stateside (not in Italy) and the pictured pistol is just a "Hartford" model 1851 with the arbor tapped for the screw assembly that hold the Pepperbox cylinder on. The screw supports the end of the cylinder by the means of a shouldered bore in the cylinder and is LH threaded. These are bored .386/.387 and are meant to use a patched ball and yes thery are smooth bored. The alignment pins on the front of the frame (which pull right out) have been left in place because they intend to sell this as a "set" having the stock 1851 barrel included.

The Pepperbox (the prototype from their website) arrived today from Boyd and Walt at EMF. Please excuse the cell phone pictures........

IMG_0620.jpg


The picture above shows the size next to an 1851 sized pistol that was laying on the bench.

IMG_0621.jpg


This shows the business end.

IMG_0625.jpg


Here is a shot showing the attachment of the cylinder. Pretty well thought out and LH threaded so it will stay tight.

IMG_0624.jpg


You can see that there is a shouldered bolt to help support the weight of the cylinder.

IMG_0626.jpg


You can see that the cylinder is well made.
 
I thought I recognized this thread and then I looked at the OPs starter thread and saw that it's the same one from last March.

Interesting information on this "marriage" but I'd be interested in knowing what this is going to sell for? The pepperbox cylinder certainly can't be cheap to manufacture and I have to wonder what market you are aiming this for?

I'm really not trying to be a "wet blanket" and as they say, "different strokes for different folks" but #1, it's not historically close to anything that was ever manugactured and #2, as a shooter, I don't see where it is anything but a "up close" weapon. If it is aimed at the reenactment crowd, it's about as "farby" as you can get. I would think that a few might be sold for those that "must have" and because it's a "curiosity".

I would think that if a company were to start to reproduce an accurate copy of a "true" pepperbox such as an Allen & Thurber, that they would find a market with not only reenactors but the shooting crowd as well. Myself, I might purchase one of those but if I were to buy one of these "marriages", I'm afraid that it would soon be relegated to the safe along with my hand held Gattling Gun and my semi-automatic 10 pound Parrott Rifle.

On the serious side, I do hope you'll keep us posted on this project and what the market objectives are and what the cost of this "set" will be. Thanks.
 
Bedbug

I am really not the one to speak with regarding price. That would be EMF....

While I certainly understand your points above, EMF does feel they have a market and the interest as the SASS convention gave them that feeling. I have been monitoring the forums regarding peoples thoughts on this and the 15 or so negative (users not post count) remarks are surely not enough to discourage the company from this endeavour.

As a gunsmith who works on and builds cartridge conversion revolvers I have seen, held, worked on and own almost everything that WAS and the pool is small. I for one enjoy the things that weren't or COULD be and find them just as fascinating.

You know EMF had a sister company (I just found this out talking with Walt there today) that made blank firing guns. I thought to myself, why would anyone buy one of those? Surely there is no market for those? Well guess what, they sell like hotcakes...........guess us experts aren't always right. Naysayers.........thank god Henry Ford, and the rest of the great innovators didn't take their comments to heart!
 
BPREVOLVER..While you are here....

....Let me mention this.

About 35 years ago I bought a .44 in Brass frame 1851 pattern with a 12 or 12.5 inch barrel.

It was sold with the name "Ballister". I mail ordered it at a time when EMF had the best prices.So I probably got it from EMF.

What do you know about the name "Ballister"?

Also

Did you notice the cartouche on the grip? What is that all about on this revolver?
 
Doc

The cartouche is there because the specs for EMF's current "Hartford" models from Italy call for it and that's all that this is (they plan to sell you a complete 1851 and this pepperbox assembly as a "set").

I have no inside info on the "Ballister" model but would assume that it is named that in reference to a cross bow........
 
Hoof

Welcome to the forum.

When I bought the Ballister, which BTW was the worst pistol I ever held in my hand, there was a passing mention IIRC to someone who was associated with the design, either of an original idea or of the replica (and I use the term loosely).

Mine was .44, brass frame, had a hideous blonde colored grip and the barrel was noticably bent. Yes, that is right....bent.

Other stuff I bought from EMF was of good quality but this pistol was a piece of meat.

This was 1971 to 1980 when I was stationed in Hawaii and Guam. Only way to get stuff was to mail order and the best source was the advertisers in Shotgun News. EMF almost always had a full page ad and very reasonable prices. That is where the Ballister came from.

It was pointless to return the pistol since it took six weeks for it to arrive in the first place. I made some replacement grips from Mahogany and straightened the barrel and held onto the pistol until about 1985 when I sold all of my black powder stuff because of problem with my thankfully ex-wife.

I have mentioned this revolver several time but have never had anyone who told me he was familiar with it associated with the name "Ballister"

Reference to the crossbow based weapon is as good as any idea.
 
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Thanks for the welcome Doc!

You probably know that I have been a long time contributor at the Cascity forums as well as a Cartridge Conversion gunsmith for close to 30 years (OK really IPSC, then SAA, then Conversions). I have started exploring these other forums as of late because the "experts" have taken over on the forums at Cascity.

It is true that Pietta's quality has come up a lot in recent years and EMF (Boyd Davis) is probably the biggest influence there. Sorry to hear of your bad experience although I have had many from many differnt manufacturers. I have even bought 30 thousand dollar POS cars!

I welcome any new item that is related to the genre that I explore (transitional firearms) and really have some cool ideas for these pepperboxes.

Here is a link to the latest "Avenging Angel" I built:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40861.0.html
 
Unusual Pepperboxes

For those who may not have seen it, there's an interesting one-of-a-kind percussion pepperbox on Norm Flayderman's website (#R316)---four-shot barrel cluster three inches long, .46 caliber, manually rotated, with an iron frame and center hammer. Apparently a professional job. These one-of-a-kind pieces seem to show up with reasonably frequency.
 
Well the "Pepperbox" conversion from EMF turned into one of those "pipe dreams"..........I bought the one I photographed and posted here for a princely sum even for a "dealer" price.

Seems they were just poking at me when they spoke of a large contract to make a new firearm for the masses!

I still have plans for this one when I get time to work on my own projects.
 
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