National Right To Carry Reciprocity

Tyme,
I think you're just being obtuse, now. While minor marriage stuff might be overlooked, you are studiously avoiding the gay marriage and helmet law examples.

As far as the other stuff goes, those are Federal laws you're talking about - affecting all states, and all citizens EQUALLY.

But we're not talking about a Federal law, we're talking about state laws being enforced in other states.


I'm not sure why you're pretending this is not unprecedented and dangerous. If you want to be able to carry in my state, how about helping my state get the ability to carry to? That's what passing a federal law is for.
 
I realize there are plenty of examples of things that don't currently have reciprocity. Although helmet laws and gay marriages aren't reciprocal among all the states, either they should be, or they should be abolished. What is someone supposed to do riding a motorcycle across a state line into a state with a mandatory helmet law... stop at a gas station and expect them to have motorcycle helmets for sale?

But we're not talking about a Federal law, we're talking about state laws being enforced in other states.
While the issuance of permits varies significantly from state to state, it's debatable whether those pre-issuance license requirements constitute a "law" that would be forced upon other states by this legislation. I don't think they do.

Under HR 4547, if I have a Florida permit and I go to California, neither Florida's permission to carry machineguns and short swords, nor Florida's restricted place list, has any effect. The federal law says that machinegun carry is not reciprocal, and doesn't apply to non-firearms, so a mac10 and a wakizashi are out. Furthermore, California's restricted-place list applies, rather than Florida's. What part of Florida's law is being forced on California?

If a state doesn't have ccw at all, it's the federal law that creates ccw in that state, and it's federal law that specifies where guns may and may not be carried. The only relevance of the out-of-state permit is to determine whether the individual gets to take advantage of the federal law.

I take it that if we could agree on particulars of prohibited places and what weapons may be carried, you'd accept a federal law completely overriding state ccw laws? I'd certainly prefer that.
 
I think you're looking at this backwards:

In Wisconsin, the law says you CANNOT carry a concealed firearm.


With this weird reciprocity, that law stays on the books, is still enforced, but some people are granted immunity from it. And they didn't get that immunity from the Federal government, or Wisconsin.

That doesn't strike you as a little odd? The Chinese used to get pretty pissed about extraterritoriality - which is what this is: Protection from a state's laws.
 
Handy, I don't get the point you are trying to make. If a state has CCW (even if you have to be a celebrity to get it) those laws would apply to out-of-state permit holders. If the National Reciprocity ended there, would you still have a problem with it? In other words, if there were no legal carry by anyone in true non-CCW states like Wisconsin, would your objections end?
 
My major objection, because then it begins to resemble the driver's license situation.

However, it still ties the states' hands in regards to the procedures different states follow in granting CCLs. There's a reason that certain states have reciprocity with many, but not all other carry states. They feel a legitimate problem exists with the procedure the unaccepted states follow.


And, in general, I think it is a bad idea to have a Federal law that mandates how states deal with state-only issues. We don't have such a law for DLs, so there is no obvious reason to have one for CCLs, except to advance a CCL agenda.


I think that the whole country should be like Vermont - and the only way to do that is via a Federal law saying so. Failing that, make CCLs federal, and get everyone's background check and shall issue on the same sheet of music. But this one is just a good example of underhanded and poor legislation - which is worth avoiding.
 
Ironically, the reason these bills are not federal ccw mandates is that the sponsors are trying to respect states rights to some degree.

I agree that the ideal is federal Vermont-style ccw.

I don't like the idea of a federal concealed carry license at all. If that was put into effect, I might refuse to get the license and start carrying illegally. Forces in Washington are too easily realigned for me to feel safe having my name on a federal list of gun-toting citizens. That's probably paranoia; after all, simple background checks reveal most state-issued ccw licenses, and if a lot of people got a federal ccw license, the feds could hardly do anything too drastic to all those people.
 
Could you explain the logic of how this bill "respects state rights"? Giving one state power over another is a bizarre way of respecting the other.

Federal laws are above states, and there is no dispute about that. They are made by state representatives.
 
Since Federal Brady law restricts who is allowed to purchase handguns already, I just don't see the big objection. Criminals are no more likely to get to legally carry in a given state than they are now, IMO. No, the law is far from perfect. But to my view, it is also far better than the situation that exists right now, which is essentially one where a handful of liberal loser politicians can get together and revoke my right to defend myself.
 
Ok... let me make sure i understand this...

Assuming passage. If Mike in Indiana has a permit, he could then carry in Wisconsin. However, because I LIVE here, I wouldn't be able to carry? Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot?

Don't get me wrong: i would LOVE to see a National Reciprocity act passed, that would allow me to carry with (ferinstance) a Florida CCW (would allow me to tell me legiscritters where to go). But if such legislation would still have me corncobbed, I'd be a bit upset...
 
I agree, it is an absurd state of affairs if you live in a state like Wisconsin. But whether or not I can carry in your state makes no difference as to what you can do. Would it make you feel better to know that out of state traveller's rights are being similarly impinged? Seems to me that it would put even more pressure on the politicians in Wisconsin to pass a CCW law, something I understand they have been exceptionally close to doing recently.

Personally, it bothers me when any law abiding US citizen cannot legally carry a handgun in any state.
 
Would it make you feel better to know that out of state traveller's rights are being similarly impinged?
Absolutely. It would make me feel very bad indeed if the US became so corrupted that foreigners coming into the Great Commonwealth of Virginia did not have to abide by our laws. I believe the deal is that if you go to a State then you have the same rights as Citizens of that State. And I think that this aspect of our government is so fundamental that it should be considered sacred.
 
Hugh Damright said:
Absolutely. It would make me feel very bad indeed if the US became so corrupted that foreigners coming into the Great Commonwealth of Virginia did not have to abide by our laws. I believe the deal is that if you go to a State then you have the same rights as Citizens of that State. And I think that this aspect of our government is so fundamental that it should be considered sacred.

Hey Hugh, I am not a "foreigner", I am a non-resident - my passport says "USA" too. And its funny, I thought that about the US Constitution too, but since the elected representatives of the "Great" :rolleyes: Commonwealth of VA have chosen to ignore that document, I think something should be done to restore those rights.
 
I have to side with Hugh here. It would absolutely SUCK to live in a state where anyone from out-of-state could carry legally, but I was unable (whichy would be WI, where we're likely to get CCW right after DC)...
 
I have to side with Hugh here. It would absolutely SUCK to live in a state where anyone from out-of-state could carry legally, but I was unable (whichy would be WI, where we're likely to get CCW right after DC)...

On an emotional level, I agree with you, it would suck. But it already sucks not being able to carry there, and the pressure of the iniquity of the situation might just get you guys a reasonable carry law quicker.

OBTW, that Charlie Wenzel thread is unbelievable - thanks for the link (I think, 8 hours later). :D
 
it is the job of the individual states to sort out these things themselves.

Ideally, yes. In practice, as you pointed out, we have the fourteenth amendment, and it's fortunate we do because quite a number of States have caught the statism disease. I think just about everyone has a love-hate relationship with the 14th amendment, but states are violating so many basic rights these days that I have difficulty believing the founders would abide them.
True, but I think solving state problems on the local level is far safer and more constitutional than having an all powrful central government playing superhero today and tyrant tomorrow.

Quote:
If Kalifornia chooses not to allow this Texan to carry there, that is wrong, but that is something Kalifornians need to work out themselves.

Which isn't fair to someone who doesn't live in California but wants to visit. States are not supposed to be sovereign territories that can pass whatever laws they want. We're not supposed to feel like foreigners when we cross a a state line. There is supposed to be freedom of travel and commerce between states, and state laws restricting weapon carry and ownership impede both travel and commerce.
No it isn't right. Yes states are supposed to be sovereign territories. I feel like a foreigner when in the northeast. Take a look at the past two elections. America is de facto multiple countries in one. If I had to break them down, I would say there is the northeast/midwest (Kansas and the Dakotas to Maine), The south (Texas to Virginia), the west (Arizona and New Mexico up to Montana and Idaho), The left coast (California, Oregon and Washington), Alaska and finally Hawaii. We are in fact different counties with different values, different spiritual beleifs, different laws, different accents, different lifestyles, etc. and have been since Jamestown and Plymouth Rock in the 1600s. The states in each of these areas are going to be different in their laws for better or worse. Red and blue states. I am from Texas, my mother is from Louisiana, my father is from Mississippi. We are southerners. We are proud of that distinction as other people should be proud of their distinct cultures and communities whether they are within the United States or without.

That being said, you are right that under the constitution, we are under the agreement that each state shall grant free commerce and travel to the others. If this is not followed then the answer is not to pass another law on top of the law we already have (the constitution) and especially not invade a state with U.S. Marshalls and FBI or worse the military and make them do what the federal government wants. The federal goverment was a creation of the states not the other way around. It was a voluntary union of states that came together in agreement for the benefit of commerce, defense and trade not to be one big "nation" or "empire." If one state violates this agreement (the constitution) than it, in my mind, forfiets all protections and benifits of the constitution and is in effect ejected from the union. Think of it this way, if you joined a club and someone in the club started violating the rules that were laid down in the beginning, the solution is not to engage in violence against that person to make him follow them, but to remove him from the club rolls.

Quote:
I don't want the Feds jumping in. If they do, what is to stop them from jumping in and enforcing pro abortion legislation if my state chooses to outlaw abortion for instance?

If they don't jump in, what's to stop them from passing pro-abortion legislation? Nothing. The SCOTUS has no spine. You think Alito or Thomas is going to jump up and say, "well gosh, Congress didn't pass national ccw reciprocity, so that means they're taking the interstate commerce clause seriously again?" Look at Thomas's dissent in the Oregon assisted suicide case. He's resigned to the fact that the SCOTUS has given Congress carte blanche with respect to the ICC. I don't think he'll even bother to continue his dissents in interstate commerce clause abuses. I think he might resort to writing sarcastic concurring opinions based on Raich, satisfying himself with jabs at the majority in his footnotes.

Which is more to be feared, a state passing laws to violate your rights in that state or a national goverment that passes laws to violate everyone's rights in every state?

Quote:
I don't want a Hobbsian centralized government deciding what we should or should not do.

It doesn't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. It gives you, as a visitor to a state, the option, should you choose to accept it, of carrying in the manner that the state's residents can carry, and prevents you from becoming a criminal if the state you're visiting doesn't allow concealed carry.

I think this legislation is one of the least offensive commerce clause abuses imaginable. Unlike 99% of commerce clause legislation, this bill doesn't create any federal licensing scheme, and doesn't require any federal effort to implement or administrate. It partially prevents states from interfering with an enumerated federal right. Is that really so wrong?

The only reason the ICC is used as justification is that Congressman Stearns knows perfectly well that, with any other stated justification, the bill would be shot down by the federal courts. Do you object to the bill no matter what the justification, or do you think it would be constitutional if it cited the 2nd and 14th amendments in conjunction with the full faith and credit clause?

I think the federal government derailed a long time ago, but no one is volunteering to depose the federal government and construct a new one. This piece of legislation, practically speaking, seems like one of the best we're ever going to get. And for every minute Congress spends dealing with this bill, that's one minute they're not going to have to think up new pork-barrel projects or work on bills that truly are abusive to individual rights.

You'll get no argument from me that things are in bad shape.

But the solution to fixing the problem, both national and state (states aren't perfect either) is not by looking to the national goverment to solve the problems but by educating those of our community and state of the true priniples on which our states were founded. I know that sounds like an abstract political slogan but it is true in a more gradual sense. In other words it's not going to come though electing Republican "A" or Democrat "B" but by putting your children in good schools (non public) that teach these values. It's by going to churches that teach where true power and change come from (not blind flag waving Republican "rah rah" churches or bleeding heart Democrat churches calling for social reform via government). In a nutshell, we, as a people, need to learn to think the way the founding fathers and their former and latter generations did. As many of us in this forum know, they would have been baffled at the way we think today (just about firearms alone).

I don't think settling for laws as the one discussed in this thread and saying "This is as good as it gets" is the solution. The more we conservative minded people compromise, the more we inch by inch move to the left and ultimately defeat our own beliefs giving the enemy inevitable victory.

[caps converted to lower case --staff]
 
Hey Hugh, I am not a "foreigner", I am a non-resident - my passport says "USA" too. And its funny, I thought that about the US Constitution too, but since the elected representatives of the "Great" :rolleyes: Commonwealth of VA have chosen to ignore that document, I think something should be done to restore those rights.

I don't know what you're talking about, saying that Virginia has chosen to ignore the Constitution, and saying you are not a foreigner ... but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from rolling your eyes at Virginia. :mad:
 
Hugh Damright said:
I don't know what you're talking about, saying that Virginia has chosen to ignore the Constitution, and saying you are not a foreigner ... but I would appreciate it if you would refrain from rolling your eyes at Virginia.

I roll my eyes at any state that denies its citizens their right to self-defense. However, according to www.packing.org, Virginia is a Shall-Issue state, so I take back my rolling eyes. Unfortunately, it sort of invalidates the only point (I thought) I saw in your entire post.

Hugh Damright said:
Absolutely. It would make me feel very bad indeed if the US became so corrupted that foreigners coming into the Great Commonwealth of Virginia did not have to abide by our laws. I believe the deal is that if you go to a State then you have the same rights as Citizens of that State. And I think that this aspect of our government is so fundamental that it should be considered sacred.

Since VA has a CCW law, the National Reciprocity would allow permitted visitors to carry under VA law.
 
sorry pocketgun, I was trying to ensure a way to tell between what was said in quote and what I was responding to. Wasn't too sure at the time that the quotes were going to come up in their window since they had both quotes from a previous posting and a posting he was responding too.

I didn't mean to shout ;)
 
Doug, now that you know, go back and edit that post.

Another way you could have done it was to have bolded your responses; italicized your responses; underlined your response or even made them a different color. There are many options you can take.

But now you know how the quote function works. Edit your post, please.
 
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