Name on government watch list threatens pilot's career

Now that's ironic. You can't get more black or white than, you're a muslim, you're on the list.

There are some legitimate concerns there, but take Israel for example(who has been dealing with this allot longer then the US - not that I support them, only that they are effective), they unfortunately have to have precautions such as this in regards to monitoring the people who enter their country.

America has been able to avoid that since we don't live in the hotbed of the Middle East, but I think if we really want to prevent attacks in the future these type of methods will need to be implemented.

You have to give Bush credit for not allowing another attack on US soil to occur, he has done a very good job in that respect.
 
You could equally claim that I have prevented an attack on American soil because I turn the lights on and off 12 times before I leave the room.

Doesn't make it so.
 
You don't honestly believe they haven't been trying since 9/11 to cause another incident in America. No more attacks have happened on US soil, I would certainly say thats a good thing and Bush deserves at least partial credit for it.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial

The Trial (German: Der Process) is a novel by Franz Kafka about a character named Josef K., who awakens one morning and, for reasons never revealed, is arrested and prosecuted for an unspecified crime.

K. is never told what he is on trial for, and he maintains his innocence almost to the end. Upon declaring his innocence, he is immediately questioned "innocent of what?"

I highly recommend this book.
 
No one is saying people should be abducted from there houses and held without provided reason or trial. All those we have in custody should immediately be put on trial, and ones we have nothing on should be deported to their home countries.

That does not prevent the government from having the ability to keep an eye on suspected terrorists.
 
No one is saying people should be abducted from there houses and held without provided reason or trial.

No they should go on the list and have their careers and lives destroyed instead.

I notice Dickhead S832 has refused to post his identity or respond to acutal victims of 9/11. Wow, why do you still respond to him? This guy is a total tool. Stop wasting your time and our bandwidth.

That would be easy to do if he was just some random internet nutter. Unfortunately he is an apologist for actual government policy.

That is the scary part, government by internet nutters.
 
No they should go on the list and have their careers and lives destroyed instead.

This is one incident where he worked directly in the aviation field, it doesn't happen often.

I think risking a couple incidents like this is worth it if it makes us significantly safer, now you can make an argument that it doesn't have an effect which is worth looking at, but the premise behind it is sound - prevent people who are potential terrorists from being put in control of a flying object.

Once he is able to prove he has no terrorist affiliation(which he should be able to do) then he should obviously be removed from the list and go back to his normal life as well as get government reimbursement for any loss of wages\hardships.

Again I don't have a perfect solution, you need oversight and you need restraint - but you can't simply take the position of inaction.

That would be easy to do if he was just some random internet nutter. Unfortunately he is an apologist for actual government policy.

That is the scary part, government by internet nutters.

The pot should not call the kettle black.
 
If he is able to prove he has no terrorist affiliation then he should obviously be removed from the list, but he needs to prove that first.

How do you prove you have no terrorist affiliations. Go to the innocent shop and buy a bag of innocence?

Once again I refer you to "The Trial".

The phrase "Kafkaesque nightmare" was invented for people like you.
 
How do you prove you have no terrorist affiliations. Go to the innocent shop and buy a bag of innocence?

I concede, the FBI/NSA needs to prove there is enough evidence to suspect him of being a terrorist to a jury or at least a judge, if they view him as a likely potential threat then he can still live his life, just without flying until the matter gets sorted out.

Again you are acting like he is being abducted and tortured for no reason, of course no one wants to allow that. Stopping certain people from flying or getting on Air Planes is not comparable.
 
Flying is what he does. He's a pilot.

Since we're not getting anywhere I'm afraid I'll just have to agree that you're wrong.
 
I can't give an answer in regards to this specific individual's case, but overall this paranoia over the NSA is really unfounded.

It seems nobody can..or will.

In this country, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. One also has the right to face his accusers nor is the burden of proof on the accused.
It would appear that Mr. Scherfen has not had any of those rights afforded to him.
 
America has been able to avoid that since we don't live in the hotbed of the Middle East, but I think if we really want to prevent attacks in the future these type of methods will need to be implemented.

I am glade that you are a minority. You sound scared, I guess the terrorist won in your case. How does it feel to live in a hole?

No one is saying people should be abducted from there houses and held without provided reason or trial. All those we have in custody should immediately be put on trial,
That does not prevent the government from having the ability to keep an eye on suspected terrorists.

kinda sounds like the gun control you want.

and ones we have nothing on should be deported to their home countries.

Why if they have done nothing wrong and were here legally. YOU ARE CONDEMING THEM FOR NOTHING. are you sure you are an American. Oh I forgot they were on a terrorist list.

This is one incident where he worked directly in the aviation field, it doesn't happen often.

put the crack pipe down.........and what about the people who had jobs and familys that have been in custody without trial. Or the ones that have been in there for years with no charges. what about the ones that had been in there for years and then released. Oh it was a mistake your free to go.

I think risking a couple incidents like this is worth it if it makes us significantly safer, now you can make an argument that it doesn't have an effect which is worth looking at, but the premise behind it is sound - prevent people who are potential terrorists from being put in control of a flying object.

Once he is able to prove he has no terrorist affiliation(which he should be able to do) then he should obviously be removed from the list and go back to his normal life as well as get government reimbursement for any loss of wages\hardships.

Again I don't have a perfect solution, you need oversight and you need restraint - but you can't simply take the position of inaction.

what country do you live in? Do you believe everything you are told on the news.

I concede, the FBI/NSA needs to prove there is enough evidence to suspect him of being a terrorist to a jury or at least a judge, if they view him as a likely potential threat then he can still live his life, just without flying until the matter gets sorted out.

Again you are acting like he is being abducted and tortured for no reason, of course no one wants to allow that. Stopping certain people from flying or getting on Air Planes is not comparable.

easy for you to say it was not your career. What about the people who were falsly arrested and tortured. Oh I forgot it wasn't you. So it is ok. You should add your name to the people who died on 9-11 Because in your case the terrorist won.
 
Well if all muslims should be on the "no-fly" list, then I beleive that all gun owners should be deported. If you ever viewed porn you should have your eyes removed. If you own a Saab, or BMW you will be locked up for life without right to a trial. Now if you are a one eyed black Russian Jew....you better start running for your life now.

Lists are good, especially when being on said list deprives you of something, because someone merely thought that x was bad and anyone linked to x should be punished without any other reason what-so-ever...

If people (or groups) have evil in their hearts, no number of lists, short of locking EVERYONE up, will stop them if they are determined enough. I for one think that terrorism is going to be with us for a long long time to come, however it will not really change the way I live. Sure I will not plan on going to the middle east anytime soon, however it was not like I wanted to go there anyway.
 
People like this pilot are on the list by mistake. He's not on there because he was connected to X or Y. He's on there because somebody screwed up. Same thing with the 4 year old kid on the news a couple weeks ago. Same thing with every person I ever met who was on the list. Their name either matches a legitimate name on the list or they are there by mistake. No one is on the list because they are Muslim or any other religion. The list is not made from profiling, whether you like profiling or not, it's not a list of muslim or immigrants or anything else other than people who are known or HIGHLY suspected of being trouble.

Repeat after me: There is no conspiracy. This pilot is on the list by mistake.... There is no conspiracy. This pilot is on the list by mistake....
 
No one is on the list because they are Muslim or any other religion. The list is not made from profiling, whether you like profiling or not, it's not a list of muslim or immigrants or anything else other than people who are known or HIGHLY suspected of being trouble.

yeah maybe he got a DUI.

Repeat after me: There is no conspiracy. This pilot is on the list by mistake.... There is no conspiracy. This pilot is on the list by mistake....

mistake? Oh yeah there have been alot of um....mistakes latley
 
mistake? Oh yeah there have been alot of um....mistakes latley

You have to read my first post. There are a LOT of mistakes. The feds and specifically the DHS/TSA conglomerate is a bureaucratic, inefficient, top heavy, talent light, barely functional glob. They put many, many people on that list by mistake. The key is mistake. It happens a lot and will continue to do so.
 
I think risking a couple incidents like this is worth it if it makes us significantly safer, now you can make an argument that it doesn't have an effect which is worth looking at, but the premise behind it is sound - prevent people who are potential terrorists from being put in control of a flying object.

The problem is not just one of pilots. Are you aware that government employment forms and information are screened through the "watch list"? Are you aware that the government can notify an employer that their new-hire is on the list? Employers will often discharge someone for that, especially if they work in some sensitive area - the manager of a store, a financial worker, a computer programmer or similar functions.

Are you aware than banks are notified too? That means if you try to take out a home loan, a personal loan and even a car loan, banks can decline to approve the loan? I worked with an immigrant from India, a naturalized US citizen. He's also a turban-wearing Sikh, a former mathematics professor, father of three and a great person. But his last name is "Singh"... a common name among Sikhs (equivilant to "Brown" or "Jones" in the US). He had to submit documents and an affidavit when he went to buy a new house to get himself off the "watch-list" a few years ago.

I concede, the FBI/NSA needs to prove there is enough evidence to suspect him of being a terrorist to a jury or at least a judge, if they view him as a likely potential threat then he can still live his life, just without flying until the matter gets sorted out.

So, you're saying that being on the watch-list is the equivilant of being charged with a crime? That's the way it sounds if you must appear before a judge or jury to prove your innocence (or for the gov't to prove your guilt). If the gov't has sufficient evidence to "suspect him of being a terrorist" then why are they not charging him? Or is mere suspicion sufficient reason to drag people into court in your fantasy world?

In your scary fantasy world, many members of this forum could not fly on business as required by their employer. If your employer has a need to send you to another city for your job - a requirement you cannot meet - you could potentially lose your job. All based on mere suspicion or a common name.

You have to give Bush credit for not allowing another attack on US soil to occur, he has done a very good job in that respect.
Really? I'd rather give credit where it's due. I credit the men and women of the western intelligence communities and their partners. The British have been reasonably successful in breaking up terrorist groups and gathering intelligence on them too.
 
Just FYI A recent ruling allows people to appeal their placement on the no fly list.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/18/BA2212DEQU.DTL

The ruling is apparently the first to allow a challenge to the no-fly list to proceed in a federal trial court, said the plaintiff's lawyer, Marwa Elzankaly.

The decision would allow individuals to demand information from the government, present evidence on why they should not have been on the list, and take the case to a jury, Elzankaly said.

So until recently a government functionary could ruin your life and you had no recourse.
Even now that ruling could be appealed.

Of course being a liberal I can't help pointing out the elephant in the room. The no fly list was created and is administered by conservative republicans. I didn't see anyone making that connection in the thread.
 
...present evidence on why they should not have been on the list...

That's interesting because people already "challenge" their placement on the list every day. Fill out some forms, provide information on DOB, address, passport, answer a few questions on said form and, viola, your off the list. I'm sure there are people (like this pilot) who have had problems but it is severely overblown (what isn't?) in the media.
 
Guys. Guys.

See posts 31 and 33 in this thread. This is who you are arguing with. There's a reason I threw up a facepalm and left it at that.
 
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