My Thoughts on UFC... What're yours? (Long)
- Thread starter Matt Wallis
- Start date
Yes, but better than watching "boxing," "kickboxing" or kick-the-air "martial arts" demonstrations, eh?
Skorzeny
I beg to differ. Current crop of NHB fighters (including the UFC) are much, much more talented than those from earlier UFCs. Now you have guys who can wrestle, punch, kick, elbow, knee and pull out submissions from inferior positions.
Skorzeny
Matt Wallis
New member
Ah, this is really turning into the good discussion I hoped it would be!
I like what Danger Dave said, however let me give another example that takes the surprise/sneak attack element out of it. I'm 5'8 and about 180 (short and stocky, but not terribly out of shape). I have some training. I could go around and pick fights with people that are 5'7" and less and who weigh at least thirty pounds less than me and who have no training and (barring some extreme circumstance) I probably would dominate. Would that make me a "great fighter" or even a "good" one? I don't think so. At least, not in my opinion. And that's what I see fighters like Tank Abbot as doing. The proof is (at least in the fights I saw) when they fought someone of equal size or with actual skill they lost.
""Martial artists denial" is when I think that martial artists hate to believe that some skill-less chump could smash their face in."
Hey, believe me, I have no delusions of grandeur. Example: There's another teacher here at the school where I work that is 6'4", and about 250 (you've already heard my dimensions above). He has no formaly trained fighting skill and little (if any) real fight experience. But he lifts and is active athletically (basketball, mostly). I am quite sure that, barring a vicious surprise attack or a really lucky shot, that this guy could kick my but!
"If you're 5'5" and you have zero fighting skills but you beat the crap out of a 6'0" wrestler, you are a good fighter."
Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about guys that have zero fighting skills but are 6'6" and 300 lbs while fighting people my size! See the difference?
Re: The Gracie/Kimo fight. I had a chance to watch it again (since I haven't returned the tape I borrowed
) and I have to say it was an exaggeration to say Kimo gave Gracie a beating. However, I can tell you why I remembered it that way. It is because Kimo gave Gracie a real run for his money. He was able to keep Gracie from grappling him to the ground for some time, and when on the ground he was able to keep gracie from getting the upper hand. The pony tail thing (which I still say was a stupid thing to have) wasn't really much of a factor either. Though Gracie did end up basically pulling it out by the roots, that wasn't when he got the finishing arm bar. They actually separated and reset after that! In the mean time, Kimo did get in at least one really nasty shot to the floating ribs, brought his full weight down on Gracie a couple of times, got in a good headbutt and eventually some punches to Gracie's head that it was hard to tell how effective they were. Finally, after the pony tail ripped out, they reset, got into a grapple again and that's when Gracie got the arm lock causing Kimo to tap out.
No one is saying Gracie cheated, or that he didn't deserve to win or anything like that. But it is obvious Kimo was a tough guy. He did hurt Gracie (Gracie really looked haggard and almost limping after the fight), and also forced Gracie to exert _a lot_ more energy than he usually had to (even the commentators went on and on about that). So you can still say that Gracie's not being able to continue due to dehydratiion was at least in part because of the extremely tough fight Kimo gave him. (I'm not making any point here, just discussing the fight.)
Why Kimo never fought again (or did he?) I don't know. I would have liked to see it.
Regards,
Matt
I like what Danger Dave said, however let me give another example that takes the surprise/sneak attack element out of it. I'm 5'8 and about 180 (short and stocky, but not terribly out of shape). I have some training. I could go around and pick fights with people that are 5'7" and less and who weigh at least thirty pounds less than me and who have no training and (barring some extreme circumstance) I probably would dominate. Would that make me a "great fighter" or even a "good" one? I don't think so. At least, not in my opinion. And that's what I see fighters like Tank Abbot as doing. The proof is (at least in the fights I saw) when they fought someone of equal size or with actual skill they lost.
""Martial artists denial" is when I think that martial artists hate to believe that some skill-less chump could smash their face in."
Hey, believe me, I have no delusions of grandeur. Example: There's another teacher here at the school where I work that is 6'4", and about 250 (you've already heard my dimensions above). He has no formaly trained fighting skill and little (if any) real fight experience. But he lifts and is active athletically (basketball, mostly). I am quite sure that, barring a vicious surprise attack or a really lucky shot, that this guy could kick my but!
"If you're 5'5" and you have zero fighting skills but you beat the crap out of a 6'0" wrestler, you are a good fighter."
Yeah, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about guys that have zero fighting skills but are 6'6" and 300 lbs while fighting people my size! See the difference?
Re: The Gracie/Kimo fight. I had a chance to watch it again (since I haven't returned the tape I borrowed
) and I have to say it was an exaggeration to say Kimo gave Gracie a beating. However, I can tell you why I remembered it that way. It is because Kimo gave Gracie a real run for his money. He was able to keep Gracie from grappling him to the ground for some time, and when on the ground he was able to keep gracie from getting the upper hand. The pony tail thing (which I still say was a stupid thing to have) wasn't really much of a factor either. Though Gracie did end up basically pulling it out by the roots, that wasn't when he got the finishing arm bar. They actually separated and reset after that! In the mean time, Kimo did get in at least one really nasty shot to the floating ribs, brought his full weight down on Gracie a couple of times, got in a good headbutt and eventually some punches to Gracie's head that it was hard to tell how effective they were. Finally, after the pony tail ripped out, they reset, got into a grapple again and that's when Gracie got the arm lock causing Kimo to tap out.No one is saying Gracie cheated, or that he didn't deserve to win or anything like that. But it is obvious Kimo was a tough guy. He did hurt Gracie (Gracie really looked haggard and almost limping after the fight), and also forced Gracie to exert _a lot_ more energy than he usually had to (even the commentators went on and on about that). So you can still say that Gracie's not being able to continue due to dehydratiion was at least in part because of the extremely tough fight Kimo gave him. (I'm not making any point here, just discussing the fight.)
Why Kimo never fought again (or did he?) I don't know. I would have liked to see it.
Regards,
Matt
Part of being a "good fighter" would appear to be selecting opponents you believe you are capable of defeating. Everybody from Sun Tzu on down has recommended against getting involved in "certain defeat" situations.
If I may quote my high school wrestling coach (who was a combat veteran as well): "Men, there is no such thing as a good loss or a bad win."
If I may quote my high school wrestling coach (who was a combat veteran as well): "Men, there is no such thing as a good loss or a bad win."
TheeBadOne
Moderator
Tank" Abbot had a game plan that he stuck to and it worked for him; "Just keep punching until the problem goes away". Was he the baddest guy on the planet? No, but he was the baddest man on MANY a night. Find what works for you and make it work for you. Looking at Tank and how he fought, that's what he did. Even Superman has his kyrptonite weakness, nobody is without weaknesses, small tho they may be. Look at the sport of football. A great defense/offense comes along, lasts for a while, then someone figures a way around it. If you see someone in action enough you can devise a plan to deal with them. What's tough is dealing with someone you have no clue about. Grappeling has taken on a resurgence again in this country and I expect it to soar high again. The "origninal toughman contest" on Fox is making appearances all over the country again. It'll be interesting to see where this all leads.
Danger Dave
New member
"What you're describing here is more of an attack than a fight. Most dirty street brawlers would much prefer an attack than a fight. Hitting someone over the head with a bat from behind and going hand-to-hand are two different things."
EXACTLY! Fighting "fair" - what is that? A fight between a 215lb professional boxer and a 215lb couch potatoe? The High School running back & the 125 lb captain of the chess club? Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions.
You don't win by "fighting" fair (again, I say anything with the word "fair" in it is not a fight). You win by finding what advantage you have, and using it on your opponent. My instructor put it simply - "Don't fight their fight - make them fight yours."
Forget about "fair" - they'd leave you a way out, if they thought they could lose.
(BTW, I use the word "win" for lack of a better one - in a fight, if you go home when it's over, you've "won" by not getting seriously hurt or killed - or finding yourself in serious legal trouble).
EXACTLY! Fighting "fair" - what is that? A fight between a 215lb professional boxer and a 215lb couch potatoe? The High School running back & the 125 lb captain of the chess club? Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions.
You don't win by "fighting" fair (again, I say anything with the word "fair" in it is not a fight). You win by finding what advantage you have, and using it on your opponent. My instructor put it simply - "Don't fight their fight - make them fight yours."
Forget about "fair" - they'd leave you a way out, if they thought they could lose.
(BTW, I use the word "win" for lack of a better one - in a fight, if you go home when it's over, you've "won" by not getting seriously hurt or killed - or finding yourself in serious legal trouble).
Matt Willis:
Your renewed observation about the Kimo/Royce fight is on the mark (and amazingly enough, consistent with my observation
).
One must remember, however, the HUGE disparity in physical attributes between Kimo and Royce (Royce was a stick man back then and not much better now). That certainly makes the victory more "skillful." But, as I've always said, physical attributes are important elements for a "fighter," which is why Rickson Gracie looks like he does, his incredible skill and timing notwithstanding.
Skorzeny
Your renewed observation about the Kimo/Royce fight is on the mark (and amazingly enough, consistent with my observation
).One must remember, however, the HUGE disparity in physical attributes between Kimo and Royce (Royce was a stick man back then and not much better now). That certainly makes the victory more "skillful." But, as I've always said, physical attributes are important elements for a "fighter," which is why Rickson Gracie looks like he does, his incredible skill and timing notwithstanding.
Actually, Tank Abbot had a great strategy - 1) out-punch guys whom he could OR 2) double-leg down the guys he could not, pin them against the cage and "ground & pound." Where he went wrong is encountering superior fighters who could 1) out-punch him (or at least not quite from being out-punched) AND 2) wouldn't be tackled down and pinned.
Yes it was. Maurice Smith, too, put on a kickboxing clinic against Mark Coleman. Coleman, to his credit though, learned to be more well-arounded and garnered himself a HUGE Pride tournament win.
Skorzeny
Danger Dave:
But then again, as I wrote before, a fight is a very chancy thing - there is no such thing as a certain victory.
Skorzeny
You are assuming that the "fighter" in question is in a rational frame of mind. Some, because of pathology, others, because of alcohol, drugs or vanity, fight against someone who is clearly about to squash him like a bug.
But then again, as I wrote before, a fight is a very chancy thing - there is no such thing as a certain victory.
Skorzeny
RobRPM2222
Inactive
UFC/Pride/Shooto/etc.
I'm a big fan of MMA/NHB ( Mixed Martial Art/No Holds Barred ) fighting. I also train it periodically.
btw, a REALLY good discussion forum for MMA is the Underground Forum, at http://www.mma.tv .
anyways, MMA fighting is not street fighting. that's pretty obvious. There are no weapons allowed, you can wear (VERY LIGHT) gloves, you know who you will be fighting beforehand, there is the presence of consent, etc. Some people get hung up on the fact it's a sport, but after you see boxers KO guys who do super deadly mall ninja systems, or amateur wrestlers put overweight Soldier of Fortune-wannabe combatives guys who have never broken a sweat during training in the hospital, you realize how powerful combat sports can be. Of course, there are limitations to sports too, such as the lack of foul tactics.
MMA fighters of today are WAYYY more skilled than the guys who fought back in 1993-1995. They can fight at all ranges- standup striking, standup grappling, ground grappling, ground striking. ANYONE who thinks there is less skill in the current MMA world hasn't been paying attention.
One of the guys who fights out of the school I go to is training with an Olympic wrestling coach, going to a local boxing gym daily, driving to a large city once a week to train Muay Thai with a world champion, is training at the jujutsu school I go to 3 times a week, AND is running his own school in another city. That's not counting the cardio and weight regime he is on. He would chop all of the guys who fought in the first 4 UFC's into liver. Royce excepted. And he hasn't even made it big yet. Guys who have made it big train even harder, because they can afford to train full-time.
Now compare that to most of the participants in the early UFC's, who trained a few times a week.
Rickson Gracie has a legend built up around him, from being the best of the Gracies. However, he's never, ever, fought world-class opponents in their prime in MMA. The best fighter he has fought was Mas Funaki, who was already wrecked physically by 8+ CONTINUOUS years of fighting for the Pancrase organization, and pro wrestling for many years before that. We will probably never find how good Rickson is, because he demands very large amounts of money to fight anyone, which puts off many promoters. It is alleged by some that Rickson has ducked Sakuraba. Rickson also claims a rather ridiculous record of 460-0, which includes fights in the ring, challenge matches, sport BJJ matches, judo competitions, and sombo competitions. This is in spite of the fact that Rickson is known to have lost at least one of the matches he is claiming on his record, in a sombo match.
I'm a big fan of MMA/NHB ( Mixed Martial Art/No Holds Barred ) fighting. I also train it periodically.
btw, a REALLY good discussion forum for MMA is the Underground Forum, at http://www.mma.tv .
anyways, MMA fighting is not street fighting. that's pretty obvious. There are no weapons allowed, you can wear (VERY LIGHT) gloves, you know who you will be fighting beforehand, there is the presence of consent, etc. Some people get hung up on the fact it's a sport, but after you see boxers KO guys who do super deadly mall ninja systems, or amateur wrestlers put overweight Soldier of Fortune-wannabe combatives guys who have never broken a sweat during training in the hospital, you realize how powerful combat sports can be. Of course, there are limitations to sports too, such as the lack of foul tactics.
MMA fighters of today are WAYYY more skilled than the guys who fought back in 1993-1995. They can fight at all ranges- standup striking, standup grappling, ground grappling, ground striking. ANYONE who thinks there is less skill in the current MMA world hasn't been paying attention.
One of the guys who fights out of the school I go to is training with an Olympic wrestling coach, going to a local boxing gym daily, driving to a large city once a week to train Muay Thai with a world champion, is training at the jujutsu school I go to 3 times a week, AND is running his own school in another city. That's not counting the cardio and weight regime he is on. He would chop all of the guys who fought in the first 4 UFC's into liver. Royce excepted. And he hasn't even made it big yet. Guys who have made it big train even harder, because they can afford to train full-time.
Now compare that to most of the participants in the early UFC's, who trained a few times a week.
Rickson Gracie has a legend built up around him, from being the best of the Gracies. However, he's never, ever, fought world-class opponents in their prime in MMA. The best fighter he has fought was Mas Funaki, who was already wrecked physically by 8+ CONTINUOUS years of fighting for the Pancrase organization, and pro wrestling for many years before that. We will probably never find how good Rickson is, because he demands very large amounts of money to fight anyone, which puts off many promoters. It is alleged by some that Rickson has ducked Sakuraba. Rickson also claims a rather ridiculous record of 460-0, which includes fights in the ring, challenge matches, sport BJJ matches, judo competitions, and sombo competitions. This is in spite of the fact that Rickson is known to have lost at least one of the matches he is claiming on his record, in a sombo match.